Almost bit my tongue off on this one

[Thawk]

This ejection was one where I nearly bit my tongue off.  HT AC was complaining about my PU's strike zone pretty much from the start.  He had actually gotten into a heated conversation with PU over the zone in between innings.  The next inning, He starts back up again while in the 1B box.  I was in "A" position, I quietly say to the AC, "Coach, you really need to calm down now please."  Only he and I could hear the conversation.  AC turns around and says loud enough for everyone to hear "I am not going to calm the F#$% DOWN!!"  I call for time, and loudly and calmly warn the AC.  He then stomps over to me and gets right in my face, hat brim to hat brim, chest to chest and hollers "YOU NEED TO GET YOUR F*#KING ASS OVER THERE AND MAKE THE RIGHT CALL!" (referring to a play at 3B earlier in the game that I was forced to make a call on, after having a play at 1B-both PU and I were in bad spot for the call; he had a possible play at home as well).  While trying not to crack a smile I said to the AC "You do realize you just ejected yourself."  AC then began into a tirade as he started walking back to the dugout, with what it seemed like every other word being "F#$%".  Not only that but he proceeds to give both me and the PU the finger as he walks off.

And that wasn't even the part where I had to bite my tongue.  After we got things settled down, I get back to "A".  Right before PU puts the ball back in play I notice the AC hiding behind the dugout.  I hold up the play, and loudly say to him "Leave".  His response was "yes mother!"  This is where I bit my tongue because in my mind I said "No, I'm not your mother.  But if I was your father, I would have already taken a belt to your ass, and a bar of soap to your mouth!"

[grayhawk]

Well, it's clear that PU should have ejected him much earlier, but you do realize that telling someone to calm down usually has the opposite effect?  If PU wasn't willing to take care of business, then I would have no problem giving a warning for arguing balls and strikes and then dumping him the instant he failed to heed the warning (which he was sure to do).

[catsbackr]

My advice, "Knock it off," and with his profanity, "You're gone."  At that point, your partner needs to come in a play rodeo clown.  No further  conversation necessary.  Oh, if he's still behind dugout, "Sight and sound, coach!"

[Thawk]

11 minutes ago, catsbackr said:

My advice, "Knock it off," and with his profanity, "You're gone."  At that point, your partner needs to come in a play rodeo clown.  No further  conversation necessary.  Oh, if he's still behind dugout, "Sight and sound, coach!"

It pretty much was that.  His tirade was on the way back to the dugout.  I never said another word to him until I saw him hiding behind the dugout.

[Thawk]

15 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Well, it's clear that PU should have ejected him much earlier, but you do realize that telling someone to calm down usually has the opposite effect?  If PU wasn't willing to take care of business, then I would have no problem giving a warning for arguing balls and strikes and then dumping him the instant he failed to heed the warning (which he was sure to do).

I have actually had a great deal of success with talking to the coaches quietly about things.  Feedback I have gotten is they appreciate that because they don't feel like they are being called out.  Many have said they don't recognize they are getting out of control, and it's a good way to reign themselves in.  This one was the exception.  PU (and I) was ignoring him prior to their heated discussion.  This came the inning after that.

[Replacematt]

15 minutes ago, Thawk751 said:

I have actually had a great deal of success with talking to the coaches quietly about things.  Feedback I have gotten is they appreciate that because they don't feel like they are being called out.  Many have said they don't recognize they are getting out of control, and it's a good way to reign themselves in.  This one was the exception.  PU (and I) was ignoring him prior to their heated discussion.  This came the inning after that.

Here's one thing to keep in mind...if they've already crossed the line and no action was taken, talking to them will almost never help. They know they have you by the short and curlies. Your partner should have dumped a lot earlier, and you should have dumped as soon as he started up. Just because my partner is a pushover doesn't mean I have to suffer with an asshole farting in my ear all night.

[stkjock]

curious what level of ball this was?

[umpire_scott]

Even if your partner had not ejected him for a "heated conversation about his zone", which would have been more than warranted, minimally a warning should have been issued. And with that warning I would have ejected from first base the second he started up again.  No "coach you really need to calm down now please". It would have been "coach you really need to go to the parking lot now please".  But even if I wasn't sure if he got warned or my partner dropped the ball and didn't warn.  The first f-bomb would have been an ejection without question.

[maineump]

42 minutes ago, catsbackr said:

My advice, "Knock it off," and with his profanity, "You're gone."  At that point, your partner needs to come in a play rodeo clown.  No further  conversation necessary.  Oh, if he's still behind dugout, "Sight and sound, coach!"

It might be tough for the PU to play rodeo clown, if he was the one the AC was complaining about - keep that in mind too.

[scrounge]

I wouldn't even bother telling the monkey to leave. I'd just do what I did last night when I dumped an asst for personal and prolonged arguing against my partner (a 15 yr old youth umpire) in a low-level rec game: turn to the head coach and tell him that the game is suspended and we'll resume as soon as the ejected coach is out of sight and sound.

In this case, the head coach took it completely in stride and merely said "John, you got to go to the parking lot, that's it". I don't really think he was all that upset with the ejection - and pretty much admitted later in the game that he couldn't control that dude either. I think I did him a favor. I know I did me and my partner one.

[Thawk]

3 hours ago, stkjock said:

curious what level of ball this was?

11u travel ball

[Thawk]

3 hours ago, umpire_scott said:

Even if your partner had not ejected him for a "heated conversation about his zone", which would have been more than warranted, minimally a warning should have been issued. And with that warning I would have ejected from first base the second he started up again.  No "coach you really need to calm down now please". It would have been "coach you really need to go to the parking lot now please".  But even if I wasn't sure if he got warned or my partner dropped the ball and didn't warn.  The first f-bomb would have been an ejection without question.

I look at warnings and such as this;  My polite comment-giving him the rope,  His response; putting it around his neck.  My warning; tying the rope up, His response; He just hung himself.

[umpire_scott]

2 minutes ago, Thawk751 said:

I look at warnings and such as this;  My polite comment-giving him the rope,  His response; putting it around his neck.  My warning; tying the rope up, His response; He just hung himself.

Just food for thought.  The AC was "complaining about PU's strike zone pretty much from the start" got no warning.  Heated conversation with PU over the strike zone in between innings also appeared to get no warning.  Starting up again form the 1st base coaches box gets "Coach you really need to calm down now please".  Still no formal warning.  Then he replies with profanity and not mild profanity but an f-bomb.  This gets a warning.  And then what we never want to have happen occurs which is a heated exchange face to face.  Don't you think that maybe if it's stopped earlier (and not necessarily with an ejection, but rather with a firm warning) then maybe the face to face never happens?

[stkjock]

36 minutes ago, Thawk751 said:

11u travel ball

Wow....   

[udbrky]

How do you not dump him for yelling that he won't calm the F down?

[umpire_scott]

17 minutes ago, udbrky said:

How do you not dump him for yelling that he won't calm the F down?

I might have dumped him for saying he won't calm down without the f-bomb.  Isn't that refusing to obey a direct request?  I wouldn't tell him to calm down if I didn't want him to. So what happens if he refused to calm down?  Well he is telling you he is refusing to calm down.  Since you are refusing to calm down, you need to leave the field.

[Mudisfun]

11u... F-bomb

 

Buh bye

[Replacematt]

7 hours ago, Thawk751 said:

I look at warnings and such as this;  My polite comment-giving him the rope,  His response; putting it around his neck.  My warning; tying the rope up, His response; He just hung himself.

You're overthinking it. Sometimes they gotta go no matter what has transpired to that point. Sometimes they need a harsh, specific warning no matter what has happened.

[MadMax]

@Thawk751, we've both been schooled on and encouraged to give a lot of latitude to coaches by CDP because of the consequences an ejection brings there. I read these ejection stories our colleagues post and one-third the time I'm finding them way too quick-triggered, while another one-third I read over, nearly incredulous those sort of bizarre antics happen and why haven't they happened to me (yet). That last third are ones I put myself into, and identify with the participants (especially the umpire, but as a former player, coach (well, instructor more like) and the son of a coach) and ruminate over what I would have done.

I find no fault in how you handled yourself. I would have dumped this guy as soon as he took one "stomp" towards me, regardless of if he had said "CALM THE F#€K DOWN" or "calm the fruitsnacks down". He's an Assistant Coach besides, meaning he's one tiny notch above Expendable, just above the batting donut and below the magic boo-boo spray on the "Need to be Here Meter".

[RichMSN]

As a group, assistant coaches are given no respect whatsoever. The post above mine shows how most umpires seem to feel.

I've coached (actually am now) and I have respect for the umpires and the job, so why such little respect for assistants?

As an umpire, I am embarrassed by the awful umpires we usually get at our weekend tournaments. But I still respect the position even if I don't respect the job the person is doing.

[Umpirechick1]

6 hours ago, RichMSN said:

As a group, assistant coaches are given no respect whatsoever. The post above mine shows how most umpires seem to feel.

I've coached (actually am now) and I have respect for the umpires and the job, so why such little respect for assistants?

As an umpire, I am embarrassed by the awful umpires we usually get at our weekend tournaments. But I still respect the position even if I don't respect the job the person is doing.

I can respect an assistant coach, but as a rule, we only "converse" with the HC regarding questions about a play or concerns during the game. If we start answering every coach's questions/arguments, etc, then all hell breaks loose. 

When I was an assistant coach, and I saw F3 pull his foot, I had a signal for our HC so he could ask for time and approach the umpire. If you know how things are supposed to be handled (and actually handle them properly), it makes things go so much smoother. 

[RichMSN]

Calling them less important than "magic boo boo spray" is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I've umpired for a long time and have worked some good baseball. I'll answer a quick quesfion from anyone. I won't have an extended conversation with anyone but the skipper.

[Kevin_K]

 

7 hours ago, RichMSN said:

Calling them less important than "magic boo boo spray" is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I've umpired for a long time and have worked some good baseball. I'll answer a quick quesfion from anyone. I won't have an extended conversation with anyone but the skipper.

I concur. To simply dismiss assistant coaches breeds nothing good.

When they become confrontational or argumentative, however, their position on their team's hierarchy excludes them from the privileges or courtesies extended to the team's manager.

[MadMax]

18 hours ago, RichMSN said:

As a group, assistant coaches are given no respect whatsoever. The post above mine shows how most umpires seem to feel.

I've coached (actually am now) and I have respect for the umpires and the job, so why such little respect for assistants?

It's a case of a few bad eggs ruining the entire chicken coop. Even head coaches are often disdained because of the actions of their assistants, and often tolerated only a length more of rope because they are the head coach.

Look, @RichMSN, I made exaggerated generalities in jest. If that besmirches your efforts as a coach, then as a fellow umpire and Sconnie, I apologize. Keep in mind that with over 1400 games called I've only ejected one head coach and restricted one assistant coach to the dugout, I must have had at least civil repoire with coaches to experience such minimal results. I have had some of the highest coach feedback ratings within our leagues and tournaments, especially these last five years, coinciding with my introduction to and participation in CDP, where you encounter such a broad range of people – players, coaches, umpires, and fans – and yet CDP, with its policy of a "Persona Non Grata" for Ejections can say that they've only Ejected 33 coaches in their 20 years and thousands of games played must mean they take this respect and interaction thing pretty seriously.

It is in jest, too, when a cadre of coaches introduce themselves to me and my partner at a tournament and begin jabbing me about how cold the Wisconsin weather is, and I reply that Strike calls generate 10 calories of heat, Outs generate 20, but Ejections produce 100 calories of heat, therefore with 4 coaches on your staff, I'll be warm enough all evening... Yeah, you get the idea.

I will say, and defend my perspective on this, that most of the strife I've witnessed (whether I'm a player, umpire/referee, or fan) with coaches comes from parents (Dads, especially) who have a team polo shirt on and purport themselves a coach simply because that's their kid on the team. This team is usually less than High School age (where coaches are employed instead of volunteer), and while the majority are volunteers performing underappreciated and under-respected work, there are those that don't have personal interaction and civil conduct as a strong suit to begin with and think that, as a "coach", they've got a twisted sense of entitlement to the prestige and benefits of a coach without grasping the responsibilities and consequences (and no, throwing money at "it" is not a responsibility). When I encounter 2 12U teams from the same small community, with diluted and mediocre talent, and hear from the parents (or players) that the reason for this is because Gold team's kids are in marquee positions (often P and SS) only because their dads are Gold team's coaches, and that Blue team was started by other dads who do not get along with Gold team dads... let's just say warning lights are going off already.

[HokieUmp]

On 7/4/2016 at 11:10 AM, MadMax said:

yet CDP, with its policy of a "Persona Non Grata" for Ejections can say that they've only Ejected 33 coaches in their 20 years and thousands of games played must mean they take this respect and interaction thing pretty seriously.

Actually, CDP's REAL impact isn't "let's all get along in the good ol' baseball game" for a week.  It's a week of letting them think they can say just about anything they want, without consequence, so when they get home, they become OUR collective problem.  Mostly so CDP can keep the teams and money rolling in every year.