Substituting

[Guest Steve]

Little league majors division question- so in the top of the first our starting catcher as indicated on our lineup car gets beaned with a pitch and we substitute in a pitch runner.  After the top half of the inning he says he needs more time before going in, so we put our starting second baseman in as catcher, move right fielder to second and bring in a bench player to play right field.

we get through inning one playing these positions.  Bottom of the second the catcher is feeling better after a breather and we attempt to bring him into the game as he is a far superior catcher.  Umpire will not allow his return to the game in the bottom of second to catch under any scenario of us moving or sitting players and sites the substitution rule as the rule- 6 consecutive outs.

is this correct?  Lost the game likely because of it.

 

 

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

Little league majors division question- so in the top of the first our starting catcher as indicated on our lineup car gets beaned with a pitch and we substitute in a pitch runner.  After the top half of the inning he says he needs more time before going in, so we put our starting second baseman in as catcher, move right fielder to second and bring in a bench player to play right field.

we get through inning one playing these positions.  Bottom of the second the catcher is feeling better after a breather and we attempt to bring him into the game as he is a far superior catcher.  Umpire will not allow his return to the game in the bottom of second to catch under any scenario of us moving or sitting players and sites the substitution rule as the rule- 6 consecutive outs.

is this correct?  Lost the game likely because of it.

 

 

Before we get into the nitty gritty of LL sub rules how about we research LL and your state's concussion rules.

[ElkOil]

5 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Before we get into the nitty gritty of LL sub rules how about we research LL and your state's concussion rules.

Can't help but agree. A kid takes one to the head and after a half inning doesn't feel right, he's done and taking a trip to the ER if it were my son.

[Umpirechick1]

I don't see where he mentioned the kid got hit in the head.  ?

How about just answering his question?  I would, but I don't know LL rules.

[scrounge]

16 minutes ago, Umpirechick1 said:

I don't see where he mentioned the kid got hit in the head.  ?

How about just answering his question?  I would, but I don't know LL rules.

Very true, that is an unstated assumption, probably from the word 'beaned'. But not clear. I don't know LL rules either and would defer to @Rich Ives or others more versed in LL (which is practically non-existent in my area).

However, IF we are talking about a kid who did get hit in the head and exhibited these signs and symptoms consistent with a potential head injury, then I don't give a rat's ass about his question or something so meaningless as a game. Get the kid to a doctor immediately. There is no 'breather' for a brain.

In my state, if I saw those signs, the kid would not return under any circumstances. Not because of Rule 6 or whatever exists or doesn't exist in LL rules, but due to the Ohio Revised Code. Here, it's the law. A blunt instrument, to be sure, but one I wholeheartedly support. It's just a game. Brain >>>> game.

[johnpatrick]

The umpire was correct, assuming you're not batting through the lineup, the starter may not reenter until his substitute has met minimum play of 6 outs and one at bat.

 

[Guest Steve]

Sorry- used wrong word when i said beaned.  The player was not hit in the head.  The player was hit in the leg.  No concussion whatsoever.

[Guest Steve]

8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Before we get into the nitty gritty of LL sub rules how about we research LL and your state's concussion rules.

Clarifying- Sorry- it was not a hit to the head.  The player was hit in the leg.

[ZebraStripes]

Given this LL 6 out rule, I'd say that the umpire was correct in not allowing the substitution at that point.

[Guest Steve]

More clarification-  It is continuous batting order in our league.

[Guest Steve]

Also- the kid that played catcher was not leaving the game- moving to second base.  Is there a rule that the starter has to play 6 consecutive outs?  We were attempting to remove a starter from the game after 3 outs.

[Rich Ives]

If you were using CBO then the catcher can go back in. Defensive moves are free sub. In any event all the players must play 6 defensive outs and bat once.

In Bat 9 lineups the starter cannot re-enter until HIS sub has played 6 consecutive defensive outs AND batted once.

Starters do NOT have to play 6 consecutive outs but they do have to play 6 defensive outs total in the game.

Pitchers removed as a pitcher cannot go back to pitch under either method..

[Guest Steve]

23 minutes ago, ZebraStripes said:

Given this LL 6 out rule, I'd say that the umpire was correct in not allowing the substitution at that point.

So is Rich Ives correct given the more clarification of batting order continuous and us removing a starter.  The kid who played catcher the first inning was a starter and was moving to another place on the field and another starter was to be removed from the game- not the player that came in off the bench and played right field.

[ZebraStripes]

I am not a LL umpire and have never called a LL game.  That said, with you having a CBO and the player changing defensive positions, unless you have some strange local rule, I think the umpire was in error in not permitting the defensive change.  Sorry for the run-on sentence.

[Rich Ives]

21 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

So is Rich Ives correct given the more clarification of batting order continuous and us removing a starter.  The kid who played catcher the first inning was a starter and was moving to another place on the field and another starter was to be removed from the game- not the player that came in off the bench and played right field.

CBO is free sub.  Everyone is in the lineup so there are no "starters" in the traditional sense, just current defensive players.

See LL 4.04

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

CBO is free sub.  Everyone is in the lineup so there are no "starters" in the traditional sense, just current defensive players.

See LL 4.04

Thank you for clarifying.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Guest Steve said:

So is Rich Ives correct

If it's a LL rules question, there's a 99.5% chance he's correct.

[maven]

12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If it's a LL rules question, there's a 99.5% chance he's correct.

There's an even higher chance few of us would know he wasn't.

[ElkOil]

4 hours ago, Umpirechick1 said:

I don't see where he mentioned the kid got hit in the head.

You are "beaned" by a "bean ball" -- one that hits you in the "bean"; your noodle, noggin, melon... head.

But the OP has since retracted that. My question is moot.

[stkjock]

In LL, with CBO, defensive subs are unlimited. 

Rule 4.04 - 2016  green book

"a player may be entered and/or re-entered defensively in the game anytime provided he/she meets the requirements of mandatory play"

mandatory play - 1 AB & 6 defensive outs.

 

in practical application, in 6 years in LL, except for LLI Williamsport Tournaments games, I've never seen a umpire or coach make a issue of substitutions

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, stkjock said:

In LL, with CBO, defensive subs are unlimited. 

Rule 4.04 - 2016  green book

"a player may be entered and/or re-entered defensively in the game anytime provided he/she meets the requirements of mandatory play"

mandatory play - 1 AB & 6 defensive outs.

 

in practical application, in 6 years in LL, except for LLI Williamsport Tournaments games, I've never seen a umpire or coach make a issue of substitutions

Thanks for the post.  Yes, I agree- the guy thinks he knows it all and wanted to keep our catcher out of the game.  Never had an issue with subs either before.

[elares]

do those six defensive outs need to be consecutive?  I know the book used to include "consecutive outs" but I think that word was remove.  That leaves a bit of wiggle room.  I wish I had my 2016 book handy.

[stkjock]

I have the 2016 in hand, there is not "Consecutive" in the rule for regular season

 

Tournament rules have the "Consecutive outs" rule - Section 9, pg 132

 

 

[Rich Ives]

59 minutes ago, elares said:

do those six defensive outs need to be consecutive?  I know the book used to include "consecutive outs" but I think that word was remove.  That leaves a bit of wiggle room.  I wish I had my 2016 book handy.

For MPR it did not in my memory.   For regular season subs in a bat 9 lineup it has to be because they cannot reenter to make up any shortfall.

[ZebraStripes]

3 hours ago, ElkOil said:

You are "beaned" by a "bean ball" -- one that hits you in the "bean"; your noodle, noggin, melon... head.

But the OP has since retracted that. My question is moot.

I've always heard bean ball as a synonym of hit by pitch, no matter where.

[MPLSMatt]

I know nothing of LL rules but just some food for thought - if you are using CBO, you didn't pinch run for him, you courtesy ran (unless LL has some crazy PR rule).  Under some rule sets you can Courtesy Run for the catcher, however, since your injured player didn't catch, I'm wondering if the ump didn't rule him as being removed due to injury and thereby lose his eligibility.   Again, I don't know much about LL rules but in any CBO league I do, if you courtesy run for your catcher, he must catch the first out of the bottom half of the inning.  Even still, if it were me, I'd certainly give you a heads up about the ramification of that move before the situation occurs...

All of that said, it's totally possible that the umpire just kicked the call.  But if he did, these comments still seem way out of line for 11-12 year old ball:

"Lost the game likely because of it. "

" the guy thinks he knows it all and wanted to keep our catcher out of the game."