Verbalizing "No Catch" on D3K Causes Problems

[DVA7130]

What the hell is "half safe"? Does that mean it was half uncaught?

Right arm extended straight out like a safe signal.

If there is a tag attempt but no tag, then the full safe is given.

[basejester]

To me it's a point, not half of a safe. 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v42743583/millad-herrera-reaches-1st-on-sontos-wild-pitch/?query=strike+out+wild+pitch

 

Edited August 9, 2015 by basejester
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[jkumpire]

As a BU on a trap ball in the outfield do you signal safe and declare "No Catch"? 

If you don't, you're doing it wrong. 

That is the closest situation to the U3K, not a fair ball. Of course we don't declare fair ball.
 

Completely different situation, you are dealing with a ball hit into fair territory where there is a big affect on any runners and the fielder making the play whether it is caught or not.. With an uncaught strike three you have no effect on any runner other the the batter-runner, or R3 if there is a force play at the plate with 2 out. 

Of course we do not say fair ball, no should we verbalize a dropped 3rd strike for the same reason we don't say fair ball, because the play is still alive.    

To me it's a point, not half of a safe. 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v42743583/millad-herrera-reaches-1st-on-sontos-wild-pitch/?query=strike+out+wild+pitch

 

From what I see the PU is saying that's a swing on the pitch, has nothing to do with the dropped third strike. 

[basejester]

Completely different situation, you are dealing with a ball hit into fair territory where there is a big affect on any runners and the fielder making the play whether it is caught or not.. With an uncaught strike three you have no effect on any runner other the the batter-runner, or R3 if there is a force play at the plate with 2 out. 

R1 and R2 for the same reason.  Also, the fielders want to know so that can cover the correct bases.

Of course we do not say fair ball, no should we verbalize a dropped 3rd strike for the same reason we don't say fair ball, because the play is still alive.    

We verbalize lots of stuff when the ball is live, including safes and outs.

 

[jkumpire]

Why is it an awful mechanic?

Because you are involving yourself in a play as it is still going on. That is a live ball, not a dead ball, foul ball, or safe/out at a base where a call ends a play. A vocal 'he's got it' on a foul tip or tough catch of a pitch by F2 is proper, because an out has been made. On a passed ball/wild pitch a play is still going on, unless there is less than two out and 1B is occupied.

On a wild pitch/passed ball with an attempted check swing the PU needs to verbalize if there is a swing or not, after that it is the job of F2 and Batter to recognize the play and make it.   

R1 and R2 for the same reason.  Also, the fielders want to know so that can cover the correct bases.

We verbalize lots of stuff when the ball is live, including safes and outs.

 

Those are completed plays, not an uncompleted play, there is a difference.

 

[krwill96]

@jkumpire Are you saying we should never verbalize a call when a play is "still going on"? For instance, do you say anything when a batted ball goes close to a runner where a coach might think it hit him? What do you do when you have type B obstruction? 

[Senor Azul]

This became an issue in the 2005 ALCS when A. J. Pierzynski made it safely to first on an uncaught strike three. The plate umpire Doug Eddings made what appeared to be an out signal that contributed to the controversy. The play inspired a rule change for the next season--a comment was added to rule 6.09(b) and a change to mechanics for the MLB umpires. 

Jim Evans incorporated this new mechanic into his book, Maximizing the Two-Umpire System in 2009:

The plate umpire should always use two clear, very distinct mechanics to differentiate between the call of a strike and a legal catch of the pitch. After signaling the strike, he should either indicate that the batter is out on a legally caught third strike or that the pitch touched the ground before being secured by the catcher. If legally caught the umpire would signal the strike and then signal that the batter is out. If the catcher does not legally catch the ball, the umpire should signal the strike and then indicate physically and verbally that the ball was not legally secured. By pointing to the ground and verbally stating "Ball's on the ground!" or "No catch", the umpire is giving the batter a fair chance to advance and also, informing the catcher that he may have other obligations to fulfill in order to retire the batter.

In cases where the plate umpire does not signal or indicate that the ball was on the ground and the base umpire clearly thinks it was, the base umpire may be able to assist his partner by verbally stating and physically pointing "Ball's on the ground!", "ball's in the dirt!", or "No catch"!. If this happens the plate umpire should alertly echo his partner and make sure that the batter and catcher are clearly aware of the status of the ball.

[MadMax]

@jkumpire Are you saying we should never verbalize a call when a play is "still going on"? For instance, do you say anything when a batted ball goes close to a runner where a coach might think it hit him? What do you do when you have type B obstruction? 

There are instances where a verbalization beyond the typical may be necessary. The two examples you ( @krwill96) present go opposite directions:

1. The first is one wherein we should only call Interference if in fact there is Interference. Any of the umpires can call it. If a coach starts barking (during the play) about the ball (not) hitting the runner, I suppose you could say something like "Nope!" or "He's fine!", but really, it's more conversational than a call, persay, and you really shouldn't have to.
2. The second is one wherein we should declare "That's obstruction!", but the impetus should be on the runner to complete his run to a bag, safely, so that action completes, and then we the umpires call "Time" and award accordingly. I'm not aware of anything we should be saying beyond that declaration.

This became an issue in the 2005 ALCS when A. J. Pierzynski made it safely to first on an uncaught strike three. The plate umpire Doug Eddings made what appeared to be an out signal that contributed to the controversy. The play inspired a rule change for the next season--a comment was added to rule 6.09(b) and a change to mechanics for the MLB umpires. 

Jim Evans incorporated this new mechanic into his book, Maximizing the Two-Umpire System in 2009:

The plate umpire should always use two clear, very distinct mechanics to differentiate between the call of a strike and a legal catch of the pitch. After signaling the strike, he should either indicate that the batter is out on a legally caught third strike or that the pitch touched the ground before being secured by the catcher. If legally caught the umpire would signal the strike and then signal that the batter is out. If the catcher does not legally catch the ball, the umpire should signal the strike and then indicate physically and verbally that the ball was not legally secured. By pointing to the ground and verbally stating "Ball's on the ground!" or "No catch", the umpire is giving the batter a fair chance to advance and also, informing the catcher that he may have other obligations to fulfill in order to retire the batter.

In cases where the plate umpire does not signal or indicate that the ball was on the ground and the base umpire clearly thinks it was, the base umpire may be able to assist his partner by verbally stating and physically pointing "Ball's on the ground!", "ball's in the dirt!", or "No catch"!. If this happens the plate umpire should alertly echo his partner and make sure that the batter and catcher are clearly aware of the status of the ball.

 

1. Oh, I like this. I do, I very do. Much better than any kind of half-cocked, half-cooked "Safe" thing. Pointing should only be done at irregular or distinctive things... and an Uncaught 3rd Strike with its status in limbo is an irregular thing worthy of a point.
2. This makes sense. Only a really pretentious F2 would argue with a vocalization like that.
3. Not a fan of this. I explained what I do in my post above, and it's because this phrase of "No Catch" can be misheard very easily. Granted, this is the Majors, where these players are paid to know this and be listening for this, and understand that if it is said then they need to do something about it.

[MidAmUmp]

We teach to give a safe signal and say "no catch" on a dropped third strike.

This scenario no longer has anything to do with a pitch. It is now a catch/no catch scenario. And as you would with any other questionable catch/no catch situation you need to notify the participants that in your judgment the ball was not caught and needs to be played out.

 

[zm1283]

There is some really bad advice in this thread. I'll let you guys figure out where it is coming from. 

[basejester]

Because you are involving yourself in a play as it is still going on. That is a live ball, not a dead ball, foul ball, or safe/out at a base where a call ends a play. A vocal 'he's got it' on a foul tip or tough catch of a pitch by F2 is proper, because an out has been made.

I've never heard anyone suggest a vocal for a foul tip itself.  If it's the third strike, then "Out" seems like the most relevant call.

[MidAmUmp]

Because you are involving yourself in a play as it is still going on. That is a live ball, not a dead ball, foul ball, or safe/out at a base where a call ends a play. A vocal 'he's got it' on a foul tip or tough catch of a pitch by F2 is proper, because an out has been made. On a passed ball/wild pitch a play is still going on, unless there is less than two out and 1B is occupied.

On a wild pitch/passed ball with an attempted check swing the PU needs to verbalize if there is a swing or not, after that it is the job of F2 and Batter to recognize the play and make it.   

Those are completed plays, not an uncompleted play, there is a difference.

 

As the base umpire, on a sinking line drive that skips into the shortstop's glove, do you signal safe and say "no catch" or do you keep your mouth shut and let it play out?

[JaxRolo]

What the hell is "half safe"? Does that mean it was half uncaught?

it means he's half out.

[Larry in TN]

The right fielder doesn't need to hear it, he's not even paying attention anyway.

"Free snow cones!"

 

[jkumpire]

As the base umpire, on a sinking line drive that skips into the shortstop's glove, do you signal safe and say "no catch" or do you keep your mouth shut and let it play out?

Of course not Mid, and I explained that above. You are better than that, that has been a mechanic for a long with good reason. 

[jkumpire]

I've never heard anyone suggest a vocal for a foul tip itself.  If it's the third strike, then "Out" seems like the most relevant call.

Frankly, I misstated this badly, and I apologize. In lower level games like HS and below, if F2 makes the play on a foul tip I will say "He's got it" as a courtesy to the batter so he knows he is out, because there have been times in my career when I have had batters turn around and ask me "why am I out, I fouled the ball off?" Instead of telling them after they ask the question, I say it quietly so on the batter and F2 know the ball was caught.

 

 

[jkumpire]

Gentlemen (and ladies if any are reading the thread),

At this point I am a minority of one (or almost one) on this mechanic, and in spite of Jim Evans, supposedly what pro schools teach, or other clinics teach, I believe it is a bad mechanic. A dropped third strike is a unique and different situation that any other situation, including a fair hit line drive to an infielder that a verbal catch/no catch call has to made on. I've done a lot of games with dropped third strikes in them and the fact I have not vocalized that the ball was dropped has never caused a problem for any F2 or batter-runner, or base runner. 

Unless someone wants for every detailed reason why I think it is bad, forgive me for not doing as the rest of you do, and if I get burned by it one day, so be it. Thank you for your kind responses to my disagreement with the mechanic, even if seemed irritable about it.  

 

Edited August 11, 2015 by jkumpire

[MidAmUmp]

Of course not Mid, and I explained that above. You are better than that, that has been a mechanic for a long with good reason. 

Please explain to me the difference between a batted ball that skips I to the SS's glove and a pitched ball on a 3rd strike that skips into the catcher's mit. 

Aren't they both questionable catch/no catch situations that deserve a ruling?

[jkumpire]

Sure, tonight or tomorrow I will give you my thoughts.

[Replacematt]

Gentlemen (and ladies if any are reading the thread),

At this point I am a minority of one (or almost one) on this mechanic, and in spite of Jim Evans, supposedly what pro schools teach, or other clinics teach, I believe it is a bad mechanic. A dropped third strike is a unique and different situation that any other situation, including a fair hit line drive to an infielder that a verbal catch/no catch call has to made on. I've done a lot of games with dropped third strikes in them and the fact I have not vocalized that the ball was dropped has never caused a problem for any F2 or batter-runner, or base runner. 

Unless someone wants for every detailed reason why I think it is bad, forgive me for not doing as the rest of you do, and if I get burned by it one day, so be it. Thank you for your kind responses to my disagreement with the mechanic, even if seemed irritable about it.  

Why don't you just do the right thing instead of potentially F*#King someone over?

[Mizzou2016]

At this point I am a minority of one

This should tell you something. 

Especially when you acknowledge that you are going against what the pro schools and clinics teach.   

[Specks]

@‌jkumpire. I didn't verbalize until 2 years ago when a mentor pulled me aside and suggested it. As I was trying to move up to college ball I took it to heart and started doing it. If you don't intend to be evaluated or try and move up then it's your decision. But you now know the correct mechanic and reasons so it's a choice.

[johnnyg08]

I'm not saying I'm right, but...I've been very successful signaling/verbalizing outs (when needed) and signaling the safe mechanic with no verbal for situations that require a no catch mechanic.  In the rare occasion that I get a situation where there's a split second where nobody is doing anything, I will verbalize the word "no" along w/ the mechanic.

I used to verbalize until I had two runners in the same season stop on me because all they heard was 'catch' 

Do what your evaluators want you to do...I happened to be under the "I only use my voice when it's absolutely needed" motto and it's worked very, very well for me.

There are some very accomplished umpires on here who state that they verbalize...so it would be dumb to ignore their advice.

 

 

[Thunderheads]

I'm not saying I'm right, but...I've been very successful signaling/verbalizing outs (when needed) and signaling the safe mechanic with no verbal for situations that require a no catch mechanic.  In the rare occasion that I get a situation where there's a split second where nobody is doing anything, I will verbalize the word "no" along w/ the mechanic.

I used to verbalize until I had two runners in the same season stop on me because all they heard was 'catch' 

Do what your evaluators want you to do...I happened to be under the "I only use my voice when it's absolutely needed" motto and it's worked very, very well for me.

There are some very accomplished umpires on here who state that they verbalize...so it would be dumb to ignore their advice.

 

 

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Fittske24]

I try to let the play dictate what mechanics to use. Remember that our "safe mechanic" has many meanings....."Safe", "No catch", "that's Nothing", "balls in play" etc. To everyone else (Players, Coaches, fans) , safe mechanic only looks like safe. So I try to use it only when the situation calls for it.

- On DK3 I will give my swinging strike Mechanic (pointing strike mechanic) with arm extended.

- If it is unclear to the off. or def. that the ball was dropped (i.e. short hop), i will also give a verbal "No Catch"

- I take a read step right or left as needed to see the possible tag attempt.

- If TAG is made, I give a verbal "On the tag" and ONLY give my OUT mechanic

- If BR runs to first or a TAG is attempted and MISSED, I will give the SAFE mechanic.

- If no TAG attempt is made, and Batter does not attempt to acquire 1st, I will leave my right arm extended (pointing strike mechanic) until runner steps out of the dirt circle....then give my OUT mechanic

Here is a video of me using this method....