Texas-Dallas Baptist Game 5/31

[zoops]

Was watching this game an hour or so ago at the gym and didn't have the benefit of volume, but saw an interesting play.  R1, pitch in the dirt that the catcher had to go a foot or two to his right to block, but the ball cleanly skipped into his glove.  In a hurry to get up off his knees and get the ball out of his glove, on the transfer the ball goes flying toward the dugout and goes into the dugout.  The umpire killed the ball and gave R1 2nd base.  I've never seen this happen before, but my understanding of the rule would be to give the baserunner 2 bases since the pitch was over and the catcher's action was the lone force that sent the ball into the dugout.  No one questioned the ruling whatsoever as far as I could tell.  I haven't done any book work on this play since seeing it, but thought I would throw it out there for discussion.  Not sure if there's a way to get a video clip.  I'm guessing it was in the 2nd-4th inning if someone has it DVR'd.  Pretty sure Texas was at bat.  

[maven]

Not finding the NCAA rule, but in FED this award would be correct. The pitch does not end until F2 secures the ball (or it goes out of play, becomes dead, the batter hits it, or it comes to rest). FED 2-28-4

Merely touching or deflecting the ball would not make it a 2 base award. Intentionally sending the ball out of play would. I expect NCAA is the same.

[noumpere]

If it was really "on the transfer" then it would be two bases from the TOT.

[maven]

If it was really "on the transfer" then it would be two bases from the TOT.

​As a game management tactic, I'm sure you'll agree that any benefit of doubt regarding "on the transfer" goes to the defense here (which is to say, unless he absolutely, clearly, and for most of 1 second has secure possession, it's a 1 base award).

[jpperez14]

come on now...
‌@maven are you talking more about the catcher needs to have at least, in our judgement (whoever is PU), enough to prove to us that he has complete control of the ball and that it was voluntary release?
if that makes sense. (not arguing btw just asking) 

[johnnyg08]

Here it is.  Thanks for posting.

 

 

[Replacematt]

I don't think PU would have had an angle on whether F2 possessed the ball or not. I think, given the way the ball traveled towards the dugout, that it could have looked like a bobble and subsequent deflection.

[johnnyg08]

It doesn't look like anybody did any awarding either.  I think everybody saw the runner advance and the ball roll into the dugout and they all moved on.

[GerryB]

I think the standard for one base or two is what impetus sent the ball to the dugout; the pitch itself or the attempted fielding by F2. The classic NCAA question is, pitch deflects off R2's shin guards (one), F2 knocks pitched ball into the dugout while trying to field it (two). 

Looks too me like his attempted fielding did it, but no questions or complaints so...maybe a "on the transfer" rules interp. next year!

Edited June 1, 2015 by GerryB

[johnnyg08]

I think all of this happened too fast to get a huge reaction from anybody.

In this case, if they got together, I'd bet they'd put him at third base.  

 

 

Edited June 1, 2015 by johnnyg08

[GerryB]

I agree.

Here it is 8-4 4) AR

"

4) If, during an attempt to field a wild pitch, passed ball, or wild throw on a pick-off attempt, the catcher or any other fielder deflects the ball into a dead-ball territory, the runner(s) shall be awarded two bases from the bases occupied at the time of the pitch�

A.R.1 If the ball has stopped rolling or it is clear that the ball will not roll into dead ball territory and a new impetus is applied to the ball by a defensive player, the awards are two bases from the time of the act�"

Edited June 1, 2015 by GerryB

[Majordave]

Sorry guys. I did some editing to this thread. Deleted an obnoxious post and all the replies to it as collateral damage. Please stop feeding the troll. 

[grayhawk]

That is an interesting one.  I don't think there is any way you can say that was just a deflection.  F2 clearly flipped the ball with his glove after he had already blocked it.  I think R1 should have been awarded third.

[maven]

That is an interesting one.  I don't think there is any way you can say that was just a deflection.  F2 clearly flipped the ball with his glove after he had already blocked it.  I think R1 should have been awarded third.

​After seeing it, I'd agree.

[zoops]

I agree with @grayhawk as well.  I also agree that as PU it would be difficult to call that in real time.  

[noumpere]

My post was one of those deleted, so here's my attempt at reconstructing the relevant parts:

 

As PU, in real time, I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense and awarding one base.

 

With the replay, I am awarding two bases.

 

So, if you are U2 and see this, what do you do?  Leave it alone until someone complains?  Go to PU with information?   Signal PU that you have information (take off your hat, or whatever)?   Just award third to "force" a conversation?

[Majordave]

Sorry @noumpere  I should have edited your post and not deleted all of it.  I apologize.  I apologize to others who I outright deleted relevant content as well.  Thanks for reconstructing your very relevant and well-stated contribution.  

 

To continue the discussion and attempt to answer your questions:  In the current age of "getting the call right and due to the fact that this is/was a game with significant meaning to the participants (not that a regular game isn't but you know....)  I would call time and go to PU and offer what I know.  Especially when every rules error will get you on this site, youtube and the NCAA Arbiter site as well as a discussion at the winter rules meetings.

[grayhawk]

Sorry @noumpere  I should have edited your post and not deleted all of it.  I apologize.  I apologize to others who I outright deleted relevant content as well.  Thanks for reconstructing your very relevant and well-stated contribution.  

 

To continue the discussion and attempt to answer your questions:  In the current age of "getting the call right and due to the fact that this is/was a game with significant meaning to the participants (not that a regular game isn't but you know....)  I would call time and go to PU and offer what I know.  Especially when every rules error will get you on this site, youtube and the NCAA Arbiter site as well as a discussion at the winter rules meetings.

​I agree.  When there is a question of awarding bases, the crew should get together to be sure the award is correct.  I think this scenario would qualify.

[law_reb]

Watching this play live my thought was that the plate umpire could not see him catch and subsequently release the ball from his glove into the dugout.  He would have thought the pitch hit off the catcher and rolled into the dugout.  Also, the catchers back was toward the Texas bench on the play.  I'm not sure the Texas coaches could see the catch and release either.  Would have had a similar angle to the plate umpire.  They may not have known there was anything to question on the play.

[Haid D' Salaami]

After watching this video, i have 1 bases, that ball was not on the transfer and IMO was still part of the pitch.

[slo8140]

12 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

After watching this video, i have 1 bases, that ball was not on the transfer and IMO was still part of the pitch.

It looked like he was making a reach for the ball IMO, but it is a tough one.

[stkjock]

13 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

After watching this video, i have 1 bases, that ball was not on the transfer and IMO was still part of the pitch.

may I suggest you watch again. pause it at 23 seconds, change the speed to .5, you can clearly see at 24 seconds, C has the ball in his mitt, he then raises his mitt to his throwing hand, this is where the ball comes loose.  of course it's much easier to make the call with replay and slo mo

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, stkjock said:

may I suggest you watch again. pause it at 23 seconds, change the speed to .5, you can clearly see at 24 seconds, C has the ball in his mitt, he then raises his mitt to his throwing hand, this is where the ball comes loose.  of course it's much easier to make the call with replay and slo mo

Kinda hard to tell but maybe he secured the ball prior to the dugout, then stepped into the dugout, then dropped the ball, 2 bases. Which begs the question, what froze the PU looking straight ahead before he looked and realized the ball was loose? Runner stealing and habit to watch for BI?

[stkjock]

IMO he secured the ball in the mitt on his move to his right.   If u look, he balanced himself for a moment, using his hand on the ground.  When he does this, he's in clear possession and control of the baseball, he then makes the move to,throw.  

 

Again, in real time, very hard to process IMO