Eject or Not Eject?

[scrounge]

 

Somebody who starts counting calls could very well end up in the parking lot. 

What do you put in your report? The adult league I play in rescinded the plus one game suspension for such an ejection. I don't agree with the league's decision but it seems that umpires often have to "sell" an ejection for it to stick. Working another league isn't always an option.

 

 

"The player/manager loudly began protesting the call and previous calls. I instructed the player/manager to cease. He continued to protest loudly, at which time I put up my hand in a stop sign fashion and said 'That's enough'. He then proceeded to ignore this final warning and continued to loudly protest. I ejected him."

 

Seems fairly easy to me. If they want to overturn the suspension, whatever, I don't care. Their league, their business.

[conbo61]

 

 

Guys, he's right...I would agree that 99% of the time, an umpire is to blame: the guys who didn't take care of business in earlier games.

After being on the administrative side of incidents and ejections in a parks and rec. office for nine years, I agree that umpires are at least complicit in most ejections (I'm not sure its 99%). Passion is part of umpiring (or at least is should be) and sometimes that passion can boil over in the heat of the moment. It doesn't excuse either side but I think its naive to think that most ejections are based solely on the player.

 

I disagree with the notion that "you have to get the player out of you," especially in terms of game management. Embrace the fact that you are or were a player. Embrace that you are or were a coach. Understanding those perspectives will make you better at handling conflict and in turn, a better umpire. One of the most important tools for managing conflict is empathy. The ability to have empathy doesn't make you a "coach's umpire" or a "player's umpire." It allows you to gain more information about how to handle a stressful situation and make better decisions.

 

I intend on playing and coaching as long as my knees and patience will allow. I expect to have a better understanding for all facets of the game though my multiple endeavors. 

 

 

This is such pro-coach 'homerism,' it's just laughable.

 

I don't really have a lot of scalps.  Maybe 6-7 EJs that I can remember, over about 500-600 games.  Let me tell you about three of them - about half that total - and then you can tell me where I was complicit.  Aside from just happening to be on the field as the umpire at the time.

 

1.  In Australia, I called a pitch a strike on a batter.  (Underage - and that matters here.)  Batter turns to me and says "You have to be F*#King joking."  My reply:  "No, I'm not, and you're done."  <Ding!>  So where I was I complicit there?  I'm MORE guilty of leaving messes for future umpires if I don't launch that guy.  It doesn't even matter if the pitch call was right or not - but it was over the inside black of the plate, thigh-high.

 

2.  Head/3rd base coach, Little League.  Two close plays that went against his team at 3rd base, and I'm working the game solo.  After the second one, he yelled out to me - for all to hear - "That's two you've missed, Blue."  <Ding!>  Those were the first words spoken on the issue - what else am I to do?

 

3.  Adult league.  Batter didn't like a strike call.  I felt it hit the outside black.  Without a word he looks at me, and then draws a line parallel to the plate, about 4 inches off the black.  <Ding!>

 

So, please, do tell - other than being the guy in the blue shirt that was assigned to the game, where was my complicity in their jackassery?  Other than mind-reading, these things kind of happened when they happened, and there really wasn't a lot of pre-jackassery that I can recall in any of these.  If anything, there might have been grumbling in the dugout, but we're not supposed to be rabbits out there.

 

Edited to add:  I got empathy, all right - I got empathy coming out my ears.  I reserve that empathy to think to myself "boy, it's gonna suck for THAT guy to miss the end of the ballgame, sitting out in his car like that."

 

 

I am dumping on 1 & 3.  No questions asked.

 

I had number 2 happen once, and I replied with "No Coach there is ONE out." with a stare that let him know that I heard exactly what he said and that he was on thin ice.  Did not escalate, did not embarrass anyone publicly, but the message was sent and the game proceeded without further incident.

[blue23ll]

I have always been tempted to respond to the " that's two you missed, blue" with a, "wait until you see number 3 coach"...

[johnnyg08]

Somebody who starts counting calls could very well end up in the parking lot.

What do you put in your report? The adult league I play in rescinded the plus one game suspension for such an ejection. I don't agree with the league's decision but it seems that umpires often have to "sell" an ejection for it to stick. Working another league isn't always an option.

I've never ejected for it...arguing a previous call or calls would be one reason.

You can't go back to an old play or plays. You start counting perceived misses, I also think they are challenging your integrity...something along the lines of a "call it both ways" "That's three you missed." I'm not taking that crap in my games. We're just not going there. Immediate EJ for that? Probably not, but each situation is different.

Drawing a line is not a warning...under that premise every player on the field could draw a line on you once.

What if you warn one team and now the next team draws a line on you. Do they get a warning too? Or do they get ran because the other team was the first one to draw the line?

[Thunderheads]

Concur:  Drawing a line is not a warning, its immediate, no questions ask

[Cav]

I have always been tempted to respond to the " that's two you missed, blue" with a, "wait until you see number 3 coach"...

 

Or, "You won't be here to see if I miss a third."

[Cav]

Concur:  Drawing a line is not a warning, its immediate, no questions ask

 

Shoot me if I'm hijacking...

 

Your plate man just banged out the batter on strike three to end the inning.  He turns and heads up the 3B line away from the batter's 1st base dugout.  The batter isn't going anywhere, isn't talking, just standing there awestruck that any hitter with his talent would be called out on THAT PITCH.

 

Then he takes his bat and draws in the dust precisely where the path of that last pitch was...in his learned opinion.

 

You're in D and see the whole event unfold, as does everyone else in the park, except your plate man.  The head coach, who is in the 3B box, actually turns and briefly makes eye contact with you. 

 

[Thunderheads]

 

Concur:  Drawing a line is not a warning, its immediate, no questions ask

 

Shoot me if I'm hijacking...

 

Your plate man just banged out the batter on strike three to end the inning.  He turns and heads up the 3B line away from the batter's 1st base dugout.  The batter isn't going anywhere, isn't talking, just standing there awestruck that any hitter with his talent would be called out on THAT PITCH.

 

Then he takes his bat and draws in the dust precisely where the path of that last pitch was...in his learned opinion.

 

You're in D and see the whole event unfold, as does everyone else in the park, except your plate man.  The head coach, who is in the 3B box, actually turns and briefly makes eye contact with you. 

 

 

No hijack at all, and good question ....

 

   .... hmmmmm .....

[johnnyg08]

 

Concur:  Drawing a line is not a warning, its immediate, no questions ask

 

Shoot me if I'm hijacking...

 

Your plate man just banged out the batter on strike three to end the inning.  He turns and heads up the 3B line away from the batter's 1st base dugout.  The batter isn't going anywhere, isn't talking, just standing there awestruck that any hitter with his talent would be called out on THAT PITCH.

 

Then he takes his bat and draws in the dust precisely where the path of that last pitch was...in his learned opinion.

 

You're in D and see the whole event unfold, as does everyone else in the park, except your plate man.  The head coach, who is in the 3B box, actually turns and briefly makes eye contact with you. 

 

 

 

If you see it you should be obligated to eject the hitter for drawing a line. 

 

It happened to me once when I was working the bases and I did not eject.  I still regret it to this day.  It was several years ago. You are a crew out there.  When it's automatic like that and your partner didn't see something that would be an automatic EJ, I would want my partner to step in and run the player.  I would support him 100%

[GreyhoundAggie]

 

I'd be careful saying that he slid a little past the bag to the coach. (it's likely that you didn't say that)

If you did, you are admitting to misapplying a rule.

Sliding past the bag isn't illegal unless he contacts the fielder past the bag. The fielder was ON the bag, thus a legal slide, even though he ended up past it.

The coach said he slid past the bag, not me, but that was part of his argument with no merit.

 

Good point on this one Gray. Only illegal if contact is made past the bag, or if he alters the fielder.

[johnnyg08]

 

 

The stories of the coaches coming out to be nice and courteous while objecting to a call also don't make it to this forum.

 

 

That's true.  I was BU yesterday when R1 slid into second with F4 on the bag.  He slid hard, but straight in and below the knee.  He slid a little past the bag.  F4 was hurt (took a spike in the ankle) and DC was upset that I didn't call FPSR.  Told him I had his player on the bag, and the slide was legal - that it was just a hard baseball play.  He respectfully argued his point (which had no merit), didn't prolong it, and walked off.  

 

 

When I read this "He slid hard, but straight in and below the knee.  He slid a little past the bag."  I guess I inferred that there was contact past the bag...I implied that the hard slide was relevant to the post.  If that's not the case, I agree w/ your post above.

[HokieUmp]

 

Concur:  Drawing a line is not a warning, its immediate, no questions ask

 

Shoot me if I'm hijacking...

 

Your plate man just banged out the batter on strike three to end the inning.  He turns and heads up the 3B line away from the batter's 1st base dugout.  The batter isn't going anywhere, isn't talking, just standing there awestruck that any hitter with his talent would be called out on THAT PITCH.

 

Then he takes his bat and draws in the dust precisely where the path of that last pitch was...in his learned opinion.

 

You're in D and see the whole event unfold, as does everyone else in the park, except your plate man.  The head coach, who is in the 3B box, actually turns and briefly makes eye contact with you. 

 

 

 

If you see it, and ESPECIALLY if everyone else sees it - <Ding!>

 

(It hasn't happened to me, but I'd like to think that I'd be NICE AND LOUD with my ejection.  You wanna show up the plate guy when his back is turned, like a coward?  Then you get shown up, yourself, but at least to your face.)

[johnnyg08]

 

 

Concur:  Drawing a line is not a warning, its immediate, no questions ask

 

Shoot me if I'm hijacking...

 

Your plate man just banged out the batter on strike three to end the inning.  He turns and heads up the 3B line away from the batter's 1st base dugout.  The batter isn't going anywhere, isn't talking, just standing there awestruck that any hitter with his talent would be called out on THAT PITCH.

 

Then he takes his bat and draws in the dust precisely where the path of that last pitch was...in his learned opinion.

 

You're in D and see the whole event unfold, as does everyone else in the park, except your plate man.  The head coach, who is in the 3B box, actually turns and briefly makes eye contact with you. 

 

 

 

If you see it, and ESPECIALLY if everyone else sees it - <Ding!>

 

(It hasn't happened to me, but I'd like to think that I'd be NICE AND LOUD with my ejection.  You wanna show up the plate guy when his back is turned, like a coward?  Then you get shown up, yourself, but at least to your face.)

 

 

I agree with this.

[HokieUmp]

 

Somebody who starts counting calls could very well end up in the parking lot. 

What do you put in your report? The adult league I play in rescinded the plus one game suspension for such an ejection. I don't agree with the league's decision but it seems that umpires often have to "sell" an ejection for it to stick. Working another league isn't always an option.

 

 

Funny you should ask....

 

I happened to be looking the other day in my Sent Mail folder on gmail, for some of my baseball related stuff.  Here's the exact email I sent to our commish:

 

------

The Orioles were batting in the bottom of the sixth with

one out.  An Oriole hitter lined a ball down the third base line.

From my angle, I had the ball as foul, and called it that way.

After I'd made the call, I had drifted between the mound and third

base, pointing foul, and saying foul several times to get the

batter-runner to stop.

The Oriole head coach (whose name I cannot recall) says to me, as

I get nearer "That's two, blue," referring to that call, and an

earlier ball I'd called foul, and clearly expressing disapproval.

I ejected him for counting calls.

-------

 

The reason for my positioning is that this league only wanted one guy.  Better still, they specifically wanted us to stand behind the mound for our positioning.  So we're calling pitches from the wrong side, and from 50' away.  And we're in the worst starting spot for fair/foul.  So it's already putting us all in a bad starting spot.

 

And this guy didn't just say it conversationally, when I was a few feet away.  It was with raised voice, while I was still at a distance, and it was clearly meant for his audience.  So I let him join that audience.

 

Given this was LL Majors, it was not a Ejection Report that one would file with MLB headquarters.  And I'm sure coaches don't really know the "don't count" rule.  But working solo, in the wrong spot, I wasn't about to let the coach then give me $%#& about calls - if I'm out of position, HIS league put me there.  But I'm also not going to let coaches do that - it has to be stopped as soon as possible.

 

But the 'official' reason is the middle of the "Personal, Prolonged, or Profane" trifecta.  Counting calls is Prolonged, or living in the past.

[JaxRolo]

If he asks for time to specifically tell me my zone sucks. He just ejected himself

[grayhawk]

Somebody who starts counting calls could very well end up in the parking lot.

What do you put in your report? The adult league I play in rescinded the plus one game suspension for such an ejection. I don't agree with the league's decision but it seems that umpires often have to "sell" an ejection for it to stick. Working another league isn't always an option.

Funny you should ask....

I happened to be looking the other day in my Sent Mail folder on gmail, for some of my baseball related stuff. Here's the exact email I sent to our commish:

------

The Orioles were batting in the bottom of the sixth with

one out. An Oriole hitter lined a ball down the third base line.

From my angle, I had the ball as foul, and called it that way.

After I'd made the call, I had drifted between the mound and third

base, pointing foul, and saying foul several times to get the

batter-runner to stop.

The Oriole head coach (whose name I cannot recall) says to me, as

I get nearer "That's two, blue," referring to that call, and an

earlier ball I'd called foul, and clearly expressing disapproval.

I ejected him for counting calls.

-------

The reason for my positioning is that this league only wanted one guy. Better still, they specifically wanted us to stand behind the mound for our positioning. So we're calling pitches from the wrong side, and from 50' away. And we're in the worst starting spot for fair/foul. So it's already putting us all in a bad starting spot.

And this guy didn't just say it conversationally, when I was a few feet away. It was with raised voice, while I was still at a distance, and it was clearly meant for his audience. So I let him join that audience.

Given this was LL Majors, it was not a Ejection Report that one would file with MLB headquarters. And I'm sure coaches don't really know the "don't count" rule. But working solo, in the wrong spot, I wasn't about to let the coach then give me $%#& about calls - if I'm out of position, HIS league put me there. But I'm also not going to let coaches do that - it has to be stopped as soon as possible.

But the 'official' reason is the middle of the "Personal, Prolonged, or Profane" trifecta. Counting calls is Prolonged, or living in the past.

If that league wanted me to umpire for them, my sent mail would look like this:

"Thank you for inviting me to umpire. When you're ready to take your heads out of your collective asses and allow solo umpires to work behind the plate where they're supposed to be, I'd be happy to come out and work some games."

[aiber]

I am very surprised that almost everyone is in agreement that a player that draws the line should be automatically ejected....just saying that I have a hard time doing that to a kid that may be emotional for a split second....Then on my report I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call? Oh well...

[Replacematt]

I am very surprised that almost everyone is in agreement that a player that draws the line should be automatically ejected....just saying that I have a hard time doing that to a kid that may be emotional for a split second....Then on my report I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call? Oh well...

 

It's a very demonstrative way of telling you and the world that you suck, and in the one subject that is almost totally verboten--balls and strikes. It's the baseball equivalent of giving you the finger and highlighting it with a neon arrow. The problem isn't that someone is emotional for a split second--it's that he chooses to show it in an inappropriate manner.

[bds53]

I am very surprised that almost everyone is in agreement that a player that draws the line should be automatically ejected....just saying that I have a hard time doing that to a kid that may be emotional for a split second....Then on my report I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call? Oh well...

Even my newbie parks and rec umpires know that is automatic!

[aiber]

I am very surprised that almost everyone is in agreement that a player that draws the line should be automatically ejected....just saying that I have a hard time doing that to a kid that may be emotional for a split second....Then on my report I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call? Oh well...

 

It's a very demonstrative way of telling you and the world that you suck, and in the one subject that is almost totally verboten--balls and strikes. It's the baseball equivalent of giving you the finger and highlighting it with a neon arrow. The problem isn't that someone is emotional for a split second--it's that he chooses to show it in an inappropriate manner.

I am going to bring it up during my next association meeting and am looking forward to learning how they feel.

[Replacematt]

 

 

I am very surprised that almost everyone is in agreement that a player that draws the line should be automatically ejected....just saying that I have a hard time doing that to a kid that may be emotional for a split second....Then on my report I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call? Oh well...

 

It's a very demonstrative way of telling you and the world that you suck, and in the one subject that is almost totally verboten--balls and strikes. It's the baseball equivalent of giving you the finger and highlighting it with a neon arrow. The problem isn't that someone is emotional for a split second--it's that he chooses to show it in an inappropriate manner.

I am going to bring it up during my next association meeting and am looking forward to learning how they feel.

 

 

Perhaps everyone should. That would give notice of what type of association one has.

[johnnyg08]

"I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call?"

 

Yep, that's exactly what you write in your report.  "But it's for the kids" right?  

[ALStripes17]

I am very surprised that almost everyone is in agreement that a player that draws the line should be automatically ejected....just saying that I have a hard time doing that to a kid that may be emotional for a split second....Then on my report I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call? Oh well...

He's sure as hell not building a sand castle.

[johnnyg08]

I am very surprised that almost everyone is in agreement that a player that draws the line should be automatically ejected....just saying that I have a hard time doing that to a kid that may be emotional for a split second....Then on my report I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call? Oh well...

 

I got one in the middle of an at bat a few years ago.  They had to put in a pinch hitter with a 1-2 count.  Sometimes poor decisions, even if emotional for a split second have consequences.  When they get ejected the hitter and everybody else in the stadium learns that drawing a line is a big no-no and instantly ejectable.  All actions have consequences.  Some positive, some negative.  

[Majordave]

@aiber

You definitely need to "get the player/coach out of you."

If you don't eject for offenses like the ones illustrated here ("that's two blue!" And drawing lines with bats, among others-emotional moments or not) that we all/majority see as no doubt ejections then you are making it difficult for every umpire who works that team or player/coach after you.
You are also making it harder on yourself. Any player or coach above rookie youth league level knows or should know that some things are automatically ejectable acts. If not, they need to learn and its YOUR job to teach them. If they get away with it once they WILL continue to do it and probably get worse in their behavior as well as more frequently display inappropriate behaviors toward you and other umpires.

I understand that lots of ejections are had to be there moments and sometimes it's hard to be quick or think quickly in the heat of the moment. It will come with experience. When? No idea. Working 200 or more games a year with guys more experienced than me helped me get it together.
I'm not saying be quick to eject but some things have to be non-negotiable and essentially automatic ejections. Profanity, Personal and Prolonged are my guides.

I also do not get emotional when I eject. No huge displays of my power. No post ejection arguments. Quick EJ motion with right hand, a word to player and/or coach notifying them are ejected (and suspended if applicable in college games) then walk away and write notes (name or number, inning, offense notes) while partner plays rodeo clown and gets them off the field/out of dugout.
I don't enjoy it but it is part of the game. You have to do this for your umpiring brethren or get out of umpiring and go coach or play. Sorry but it's that simple.