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odd D3K, Time play?

Guest Matt

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Guest Matt

Guest Matt

Posted
Posted

I had an odd situation this weekend that I'd like to hear thoughts on and provide any criticism.  Situation

 

12U FED rules

R2 and R3

2 outs

D3k passed ball, the defense tries to get R3 out at the plate but he was safe.  Batter/runner was standing at the plate watching the play offense team dugout and stands yelling for him to run; defense dugout and stands yelling through it to first.  Batter/runner starts to run to first, by this time R2 has rounded 3rd and is headed home.  The offense explainably makes the play on R2 getting the 3rd out.  Here's the kicker.. The 3rd out was made before the Batter reached 1st base.  

 

I ruled that the run counted as the 3rd out wasn't the batter/runner rather it was R2 so that it was a time play.  DC argued that since it was a strikeout and the batter didn't reach 1st before the 3rd out that the run shouldn't count.  Talked with my partner and he felt that since it was a strikeout and the runners were R2 and R3 at TOP and at the strikeout that they shouldn't count.  I don't think that it matters but after R2 was the 3rd out the batter/runner kept going and did reach 1st base.  I stuck with my original call and counted the run.  Did I kick it? 

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ricka56
ricka56

Why ? Because there is a possibility of an advantageous 4th out. I'm not sure if you're hanging your hat on the OP play at 1B NOT being an appeal play or a strict interp of 4.09(a) (in which a third o

Sut'n Blue
Sut'n Blue

This topic could serve as the Kobayashi Maru of umpire training.   Just for yuks let's assume R2 in the OP was tagged out after a run down during which time BR made it to second. Also assume that af

Replacematt
Replacematt

It's not contradictory. In one, the runner committed an infraction. In the other, he didn't.

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MidAmUmp

MidAmUmp

Posted
Posted

First, I'd really like to thank @Richvee for bringing me into this... :shakehead: ...as if I'm some authority.

 

Second, I'd like to quote Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men - "It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove!"

 

The problem with the 15-page discussion last off season was that the person who posted the challenge was basing the challenge on a OBR interpretation when it concerned an NCAA test question.

 

Whether you agree or disagree - the NCAA essentially says the B/R is forced to advance to 1st base when the ball is put in play by either hitting the ball or a D3K and if he does not do so on a play in which the 3rd out is made elsewhere, there can be an advantageous 4th out on the B/R for failing to advance to 1st base.  So again, it doesn't matter what I believe.  It only matters what I can prove.  And at the NCAA level, that is what I can prove whether I like it or not.

 

In closing, since I'm quoting movies, as Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that."

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Replacematt

Replacematt

Posted
Posted

First, I'd really like to thank @Richvee for bringing me into this... :shakehead: ...as if I'm some authority.

 

Second, I'd like to quote Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men - "It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove!"

 

The problem with the 15-page discussion last off season was that the person who posted the challenge was basing the challenge on a OBR interpretation when it concerned an NCAA test question.

 

Whether you agree or disagree - the NCAA essentially says the B/R is forced to advance to 1st base when the ball is put in play by either hitting the ball or a D3K and if he does not do so on a play in which the 3rd out is made elsewhere, there can be an advantageous 4th out on the B/R for failing to advance to 1st base.  So again, it doesn't matter what I believe.  It only matters what I can prove.  And at the NCAA level, that is what I can prove whether I like it or not.

 

In closing, since I'm quoting movies, as Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that."

 

And that's why I'll call it like that in NCAA, and beg the OC to protest if I ever have it. This is one of those interpretations where I hold my nose as I call it.

  • 0
Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

First, I'd really like to thank @Richvee for bringing me into this... :shakehead: ...as if I'm some authority.

 

Second, I'd like to quote Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men - "It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove!"

 

The problem with the 15-page discussion last off season was that the person who posted the challenge was basing the challenge on a OBR interpretation when it concerned an NCAA test question.

 

Whether you agree or disagree - the NCAA essentially says the B/R is forced to advance to 1st base when the ball is put in play by either hitting the ball or a D3K and if he does not do so on a play in which the 3rd out is made elsewhere, there can be an advantageous 4th out on the B/R for failing to advance to 1st base.  So again, it doesn't matter what I believe.  It only matters what I can prove.  And at the NCAA level, that is what I can prove whether I like it or not.

 

In closing, since I'm quoting movies, as Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that."

 

And that's why I'll call it like that in NCAA, and beg the OC to protest if I ever have it. This is one of those interpretations where I hold my nose as I call it.

Why would you ask the OC to protest when you know the protest will be denied. Just hold your nose if that helps. Or see if that question has a different answer in next years test.

  • 0
Replacematt

Replacematt

Posted
Posted

 

 

First, I'd really like to thank @Richvee for bringing me into this... :shakehead: ...as if I'm some authority.

 

Second, I'd like to quote Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men - "It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove!"

 

The problem with the 15-page discussion last off season was that the person who posted the challenge was basing the challenge on a OBR interpretation when it concerned an NCAA test question.

 

Whether you agree or disagree - the NCAA essentially says the B/R is forced to advance to 1st base when the ball is put in play by either hitting the ball or a D3K and if he does not do so on a play in which the 3rd out is made elsewhere, there can be an advantageous 4th out on the B/R for failing to advance to 1st base.  So again, it doesn't matter what I believe.  It only matters what I can prove.  And at the NCAA level, that is what I can prove whether I like it or not.

 

In closing, since I'm quoting movies, as Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that."

 

And that's why I'll call it like that in NCAA, and beg the OC to protest if I ever have it. This is one of those interpretations where I hold my nose as I call it.

Why would you ask the OC to protest when you know the protest will be denied. Just hold your nose if that helps. Or see if that question has a different answer in next years test.

 

 

So I could see the basis for the denial.

  • 0
Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

First, I'd really like to thank @Richvee for bringing me into this... :shakehead: ...as if I'm some authority.

 

Second, I'd like to quote Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men - "It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove!"

 

The problem with the 15-page discussion last off season was that the person who posted the challenge was basing the challenge on a OBR interpretation when it concerned an NCAA test question.

 

Whether you agree or disagree - the NCAA essentially says the B/R is forced to advance to 1st base when the ball is put in play by either hitting the ball or a D3K and if he does not do so on a play in which the 3rd out is made elsewhere, there can be an advantageous 4th out on the B/R for failing to advance to 1st base.  So again, it doesn't matter what I believe.  It only matters what I can prove.  And at the NCAA level, that is what I can prove whether I like it or not.

 

In closing, since I'm quoting movies, as Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that."

 

And that's why I'll call it like that in NCAA, and beg the OC to protest if I ever have it. This is one of those interpretations where I hold my nose as I call it.

Why would you ask the OC to protest when you know the protest will be denied. Just hold your nose if that helps. Or see if that question has a different answer in next years test.

 

So I could see the basis for the denial.

Why don't you look up the NCAA test question and see what they cited. It will probably be their version of the cites you see here for OBR with the same ambiguity which would allow another 15 page argument.

  • 0
Replacematt

Replacematt

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

 

First, I'd really like to thank @Richvee for bringing me into this... :shakehead: ...as if I'm some authority.

 

Second, I'd like to quote Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men - "It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove!"

 

The problem with the 15-page discussion last off season was that the person who posted the challenge was basing the challenge on a OBR interpretation when it concerned an NCAA test question.

 

Whether you agree or disagree - the NCAA essentially says the B/R is forced to advance to 1st base when the ball is put in play by either hitting the ball or a D3K and if he does not do so on a play in which the 3rd out is made elsewhere, there can be an advantageous 4th out on the B/R for failing to advance to 1st base.  So again, it doesn't matter what I believe.  It only matters what I can prove.  And at the NCAA level, that is what I can prove whether I like it or not.

 

In closing, since I'm quoting movies, as Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that."

 

And that's why I'll call it like that in NCAA, and beg the OC to protest if I ever have it. This is one of those interpretations where I hold my nose as I call it.

Why would you ask the OC to protest when you know the protest will be denied. Just hold your nose if that helps. Or see if that question has a different answer in next years test.  

So I could see the basis for the denial.

Why don't you look up the NCAA test question and see what they cited. It will probably be their version of the cites you see here for OBR with the same ambiguity which would allow another 15 page argument.

 

 

If that was an option, I would. The test is inaccessible after the review period (I also don't think I had that question on mine.)

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Larry in TN

Larry in TN

Posted
Posted

I'm just a lowly scorer here but here's how I'd look at this if I was scoring the game.

 

2 Outs.  Uncaught third-strike.  R3 advanced to home prior to R2 being tagged out.  BR never attempts to advance to 1B.

 

Since the BR never reaches 1B after his U3K I'm recording the strikeout.  The strikeout is the 3rd out.  R2 being tagged is the 4th out.  No runs score.

 

Where am I going wrong?

  • 0
MidAmUmp

MidAmUmp

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

 

 

First, I'd really like to thank @Richvee for bringing me into this... :shakehead: ...as if I'm some authority.

 

Second, I'd like to quote Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men - "It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove!"

 

The problem with the 15-page discussion last off season was that the person who posted the challenge was basing the challenge on a OBR interpretation when it concerned an NCAA test question.

 

Whether you agree or disagree - the NCAA essentially says the B/R is forced to advance to 1st base when the ball is put in play by either hitting the ball or a D3K and if he does not do so on a play in which the 3rd out is made elsewhere, there can be an advantageous 4th out on the B/R for failing to advance to 1st base.  So again, it doesn't matter what I believe.  It only matters what I can prove.  And at the NCAA level, that is what I can prove whether I like it or not.

 

In closing, since I'm quoting movies, as Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that."

 

And that's why I'll call it like that in NCAA, and beg the OC to protest if I ever have it. This is one of those interpretations where I hold my nose as I call it.

Why would you ask the OC to protest when you know the protest will be denied. Just hold your nose if that helps. Or see if that question has a different answer in next years test.  

So I could see the basis for the denial.

Why don't you look up the NCAA test question and see what they cited. It will probably be their version of the cites you see here for OBR with the same ambiguity which would allow another 15 page argument.

 

 

If that was an option, I would. The test is inaccessible after the review period (I also don't think I had that question on mine.)

 

I think in the 15 page crap from last year I referenced the rules the NCAA sited.  Maybe not...and I'm not going back to look at it to see if I did.  If I remember correctly they referenced the B/R is out when... & the advantageous 4th out rules.  I have it written down, but I'd have to find my test.

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basejester

basejester

Posted
Posted

I think in the 15 page crap from last year I referenced the rules the NCAA sited.  Maybe not...and I'm not going back to look at it to see if I did.  If I remember correctly they referenced the B/R is out when... & the advantageous 4th out rules.  I have it written down, but I'd have to find my test.

Check pages 79 & 80 in the NCAA rule book. I say it's not an appeal, but it actually is an apparent, advantageous 4th out appeal. B/R didn't touch 1st, force is not removed, B/R is called out and no run can score when the 3rd out (or in this case an advantageous 4th out) is a force out.

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noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

 

 

You have MAU on your side because he calls NCAA and they want it called that way.

Pretty sure this question (or one dealing with the same issue) was on the NCAA test in the past year or so -- and they get the "fourth" (third) out on the BR.

 

The question has been around since the dawn of the interwebs.  Most don't like the answer, but how the "powers that be" want it called seems clear to me.

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Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

You have MAU on your side because he calls NCAA and they want it called that way.

Pretty sure this question (or one dealing with the same issue) was on the NCAA test in the past year or so -- and they get the "fourth" (third) out on the BR.

 

The question has been around since the dawn of the interwebs.  Most don't like the answer, but how the "powers that be" want it called seems clear to me.

 

 

Just because the NCAA wants the out doesn't mean OBR wants the out. Hence the problem here. Most games in this country are played by OBR (with mods). NCAA games are by far the fewest. FED is HS and AAU.

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MidAmUmp

MidAmUmp

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

 

You have MAU on your side because he calls NCAA and they want it called that way.

Pretty sure this question (or one dealing with the same issue) was on the NCAA test in the past year or so -- and they get the "fourth" (third) out on the BR.

 

The question has been around since the dawn of the interwebs.  Most don't like the answer, but how the "powers that be" want it called seems clear to me.

 

 

Just because the NCAA wants the out doesn't mean OBR wants the out. Hence the problem here. Most games in this country are played by OBR (with mods). NCAA games are by far the fewest. FED is HS and AAU.

 

Let's make this real simple...In the unlikely event you should ever have a play like this to begin with, you should call it the way the governing body wants you to call it.

  • 0
Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

 

You have MAU on your side because he calls NCAA and they want it called that way.

Pretty sure this question (or one dealing with the same issue) was on the NCAA test in the past year or so -- and they get the "fourth" (third) out on the BR.

 

The question has been around since the dawn of the interwebs.  Most don't like the answer, but how the "powers that be" want it called seems clear to me.

 

 

Just because the NCAA wants the out doesn't mean OBR wants the out. Hence the problem here. Most games in this country are played by OBR (with mods). NCAA games are by far the fewest. FED is HS and AAU.

 

In my area, the travel/club leagues I work for (14u through 18u) more and more are using FED rules.  The leagues seem to like the fact that they don't have to any special "contact " rules, or bat rules, etc. It's all dome for them. 

  • 0
Guest roothog66

Guest roothog66

Posted
Posted

I'm just a lowly scorer here but here's how I'd look at this if I was scoring the game.

 

2 Outs.  Uncaught third-strike.  R3 advanced to home prior to R2 being tagged out.  BR never attempts to advance to 1B.

 

Since the BR never reaches 1B after his U3K I'm recording the strikeout.  The strikeout is the 3rd out.  R2 being tagged is the 4th out.  No runs score.

 

Where am I going wrong?

This is how I see it. Once swinging at strike three and having it dropped, the batter-runner has two options, either abandon the play or he is forced to run to first. The out at first becomes the next (in this case third out) regardless of any subsequent outs made on the basepaths - a forced out takes priority.

 

Let's put it this way. Say, rather than a dropped third strike, the batter put the ball in play, then broke his ankle and went down while running to first. R3 scores on  a missed tag at home and R2 comes flying in behind him and is tagged out. Only then does F2 see that the b-r hasn't reached first and throws to first for the force. Would you score the run then? Does an attempt at an out somewhere other than at a forced base mean that the defense has relenquished any of the advantages gained from a force out?

  • 0
MidAmUmp

MidAmUmp

Posted
Posted

I'm just a lowly scorer here but here's how I'd look at this if I was scoring the game.

 

2 Outs.  Uncaught third-strike.  R3 advanced to home prior to R2 being tagged out.  BR never attempts to advance to 1B.

 

Since the BR never reaches 1B after his U3K I'm recording the strikeout.  The strikeout is the 3rd out.  R2 being tagged is the 4th out.  No runs score.

 

Where am I going wrong?

This is how I see it. Once swinging at strike three and having it dropped, the batter-runner has two options, either abandon the play or he is forced to run to first. The out at first becomes the next (in this case third out) regardless of any subsequent outs made on the basepaths - a forced out takes priority.

 

Let's put it this way. Say, rather than a dropped third strike, the batter put the ball in play, then broke his ankle and went down while running to first. R3 scores on  a missed tag at home and R2 comes flying in behind him and is tagged out. Only then does F2 see that the b-r hasn't reached first and throws to first for the force. Would you score the run then? Does an attempt at an out somewhere other than at a forced base mean that the defense has relenquished any of the advantages gained from a force out?

That was essentially the question on the NCAA test. The NCAA says the run doesn't score and the BR not touching 1st is an advantageous 3rd out. Apparently MLB's interp (I haven't actually seen it) says the out at 1st is not an advantageous 4th out and the run would score.

  • 0
grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

 

I'm just a lowly scorer here but here's how I'd look at this if I was scoring the game.

 

2 Outs.  Uncaught third-strike.  R3 advanced to home prior to R2 being tagged out.  BR never attempts to advance to 1B.

 

Since the BR never reaches 1B after his U3K I'm recording the strikeout.  The strikeout is the 3rd out.  R2 being tagged is the 4th out.  No runs score.

 

Where am I going wrong?

This is how I see it. Once swinging at strike three and having it dropped, the batter-runner has two options, either abandon the play or he is forced to run to first. The out at first becomes the next (in this case third out) regardless of any subsequent outs made on the basepaths - a forced out takes priority.

 

Let's put it this way. Say, rather than a dropped third strike, the batter put the ball in play, then broke his ankle and went down while running to first. R3 scores on  a missed tag at home and R2 comes flying in behind him and is tagged out. Only then does F2 see that the b-r hasn't reached first and throws to first for the force. Would you score the run then? Does an attempt at an out somewhere other than at a forced base mean that the defense has relenquished any of the advantages gained from a force out?

 

 

A force out only takes priority on 4th out appeals, and according to Wendelstedt, this is not an appeal situation.  Once the defense CHOSE to play on R2 at home and made the third out, the inning is over, absent a legal and proper appeal.  Since appeals are only for bases missed, or not properly retouched (and NOT bases not yet reached), then the throw over to first (or tag of the BR) is not a legal and proper appeal.  Inning over, score the run.

 

As MidAmUmp says, the NCAA feels differently and says allow this to be a proper appeal.

  • 0
basejester

basejester

Posted
Posted

If you like an advantageous 4th out (for OBR) on the batter, how do you feel about an advantageous 4th out on a base stealer when the batter Ks?  Is it different?  Why?

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noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

If you like an advantageous 4th out (for OBR) on the batter, how do you feel about an advantageous 4th out on a base stealer when the batter Ks?  Is it different?  Why?

Unless I'm missing something, it's not a force out or an out on BR to first.  That's why it's different.

 

We can argue (but we won't get anywhere) about the 4th out on the BR, but I can't find any "advantageous 4th out" in the situation you describe.

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basejester

basejester

Posted
Posted

Suppose the batter who struck out is a poor hitter and the defense would prefer to face him again the next inning.  It's advantageous for a different reason. 

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noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

Suppose the batter who struck out is a poor hitter and the defense would prefer to face him again the next inning.  It's advantageous for a different reason. 

Not relevant.  The "advantageous" out is to prevent a run (or runs).

 

And, since the batter became a runner (or completed his time at bat), he still can't (legally) bat the next inning.

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Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

From the PBUC just past all the appeal cases....

 

 

In addition to the preceding approved rulings regarding appeal plays, the examples and plays found in the Case Book Comments to Official Baseball Rule 4.09 also pertain to appeal plays. In particular, plays found in that section of the Official Baseball Rules demonstrate the following three concepts:

 

1. No run shall score during a play in which the 3rd out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. 

 

 

The way I read this, I'm thinking OBR will let me get a 4th out on appeal on a batter-runner not reaching 1st. 

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goody14

goody14

Posted
Posted

I think the concept they are trying to convey is a BR missing 1st base and then being appealed - not the case of him never reaching it.

 

That is way I am reading that.

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Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

I think the concept they are trying to convey is a BR missing 1st base and then being appealed - not the case of him never reaching it.

 

That is way I am reading that.

1. No run shall score during a play in which the 3rd out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. 

  • 0
Replacematt

Replacematt

Posted
Posted

 

I think the concept they are trying to convey is a BR missing 1st base and then being appealed - not the case of him never reaching it.

 

That is way I am reading that.

1. No run shall score during a play in which the 3rd out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. 

 

 

He didn't touch it if he missed it.

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