Ye Old Catcher's Balk

[RingEmUp]

AAU Nationals at Disney.  FED rules. 11u pool play game, extra inning using international tie breaker.  Coach keeps having his catcher set up further and further outside because he doesn't want the offensive team to lay down a bunt to score the tying run.  I tell the catcher he needs to move back in while the coach has him set up almost outside of the left-handed batters box before the pitch is delivered.  Once the catcher makes the catch I call time and balk in the tying run from 3rd.  The Assistant coach starts chirping and the he says "You're terrible" after which I give him a warning and then he says "I don't care, you're still terrible" and I proceed to give him the EJ he deserved. 

 

One of the D-1 colleges umpires watching us said I probably shouldn't have called it because I am inserting myself into a sitiuation that can only make things worse.  At what point do you have no choice but to make the call?  I'm not there to coach just enforce the rules but I realize that this type of situation falls under game management.  The HC was a rat the complained non-stop from the 2nd inning on starting with a BOO that he was wrong about but had asked to stop to clock.  I said the clock keeps running and he gave me a dirty look and our coach-umpire relationship was going downhill fast after that.    

[Stan W.]

What rules code does AAU at Disney do games under?

[RingEmUp]

What rules code does AAU at Disney do games under?

 

Edited to add in FED rules.

[Forest Ump]

AAU Nationals at Disney.  FED rules. 11u pool play game, extra inning using international tie breaker.  Coach keeps having his catcher set up further and further outside because he doesn't want the offensive team to lay down a bunt to score the tying run.  I tell the catcher he needs to move back in while the coach has him set up almost outside of the left-handed batters box before the pitch is delivered.  Once the catcher makes the catch I call time and balk in the tying run from 3rd.  The Assistant coach starts chirping and the he says "You're terrible" after which I give him a warning and then he says "I don't care, you're still terrible" and I proceed to give him the EJ he deserved. 

 

I have no problem with this call. You stated the catcher was almost outside of the LH batters box. That's pretty far out there and is definitely in violation of rule 1-1-4. The penalty is 2-18-1, illegal pitch. I think I would have handled it this way. When I see that catcher set up way out there, I'm coming up with a loud time so that everyone has my attention. I'm going to then state very loudly so that all can hear that the catcher needs to set up in the catchers box. Hopefully that prevents this violation from occurring. Then if it does, nobody can honestly dispute the call, even if they do. I  wouldn't call it a catchers balk since it's not. It's an illegal pitch and needs to be stated as such.

[noumpere]

If the ball is going to be thrown that far outside, why doesn't the coach just ask for an intentional walk?

[Mad Mike]

BRD Section 306 Interference By: Catcher: Creates Balk During: Pitch or Intentional Base on Balls:

 

FED: At TOP, the catcher must have both feet in the catcher's box. (1-1-4; 6-1-1) Penalty: Ball/Balk. (6-1-1 PEN) 

 

NCAA: The catcher "shall have both feet in the catcher's box until the pitch is released." (2-17 AR; 5-4a; 9-3i) PENALTY: Ball/Balk. (2-17 AR PEN; 5-4a PEN)

 

Added: Also: If the catcher is setting up outside the lines of the box, the umpire should call time and have the catcher move to a legal receiving position. (1-3b AR)

 

OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION 311-306: CCC: If the pitcher delivers when the catcher is not in his box, the penalty is imposed only when it occurs during an intentional base on balls. (#2, March 2013)

 

OBR: The catcher must remain in the catcher's box when the pitcher delivers only when the defense is giving an intentional base on balls. (8.05L) The catcher may leave his position at the time of the pitch. Except: During an intentional walk, the catcher may not leave his box until the pitch leaves the pitcher's hand. (4.03a) Penalty: Balk (4.03a PEN) Except:

 

OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION 312-306: Deary: During an intentional walk the catcher may jump from his box as soon as the pitcher begins his preliminary motions in either legal position; i.e., at the time of pitch. (REF 6/87)

 

Note: According to Carl Childress, this is an excellent example of authorities saying one thing and meaning another. The OBR and Wendlestedt hold that during an intentional walk, the catcher must remain in the box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand; otherwise the umpire will assess a balk. Deary has no such illusions. Anybody who watches professional baseball knows that Barney's interpretation reigns supreme.

 

Note: During a pitchout the catcher may jump from his box at any time, regardless of whether the pitcher has started his preliminary motion.

[cyclonehokiece]

If the ball is going to be thrown that far outside, why doesn't the coach just ask for an intentional walk?

Coach maybe didn't know he had that option since it is not in OBR?

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[grayhawk]

I'm not calling this unless and until one of the teams complains.  If you do call this, then every time either catcher is an inch outside the box, both sides are going to be harping on you to call it.

[RingEmUp]

 

If the ball is going to be thrown that far outside, why doesn't the coach just ask for an intentional walk?

Coach maybe didn't know he had that option since it is not in OBR?

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The intent was to make it impossible for the OT to bunt the ball, not walk the batter.  I was thinking the same thing, I was also thinking this coach was an idiot, rat and had no faith in his defense.  He also had no clue.  The pitch before I called the balk the batter stretched across as far as he could while keeping his feet in the box holding the bat one-handed trying to get the bunt down and he almost pulled it off.  That's when the coach had his catcher set up so far outside that I didn't bother getting set.  I stood where the slot was supposed to be and made the call.

[RingEmUp]

I'm not calling this unless and until one of the teams complains.  If you do call this, then every time either catcher is an inch outside the box, both sides are going to be harping on you to call it.

 

 

I'll add this.  There was no catcher's box, but the catcher was outside of the LH batters box. 

[ricka56]

AAU Nationals at Disney.  FED rules. 11u pool play game, extra inning using international tie breaker.  Coach keeps having his catcher set up further and further outside because he doesn't want the offensive team to lay down a bunt to score the tying run.  I tell the catcher he needs to move back in while the coach has him set up almost outside of the left-handed batters box before the pitch is delivered.  Once the catcher makes the catch I call time and balk in the tying run from 3rd. 

 

The defense was essentially calling for a pitch-out but F2 was setting up for it (WAY-out) prior to the pitch. You were within your rights to call this infraction. But I don't think the idea to balk in the game tying run would have even occurred to me.

[maven]

I'm not calling this. Like @grayhawk, I'm ignoring it as long as I possibly can (or slightly longer), and then I'll fix it by moving F2. If he won't move, I'll eject him before I balk in the winning run on this.

[Cav]

Good job on taking care of business with the AC.  I have no problem of you doing what you did, or of F2 doing what he was told to do.  OTOH, what was the rest of the situation?  Outs?  Other runners?  I'm thinking the D can pull this off for only 3 or less ABs, then the problem corrects itself without exposing you to any collateral damage. 

[noumpere]

 

AAU Nationals at Disney.  FED rules. 11u pool play game, extra inning using international tie breaker.  Coach keeps having his catcher set up further and further outside because he doesn't want the offensive team to lay down a bunt to score the tying run.  I tell the catcher he needs to move back in while the coach has him set up almost outside of the left-handed batters box before the pitch is delivered.  Once the catcher makes the catch I call time and balk in the tying run from 3rd. 

 

The defense was essentially calling for a pitch-out but F2 was setting up for it (WAY-out) prior to the pitch. You were within your rights to call this infraction. But I don't think the idea to balk in the game tying run would have even occurred to me.

 

Agreed -- but if it was the game WINNING run ...

[Majordave]

[ricka56]

 

 

AAU Nationals at Disney.  FED rules. 11u pool play game, extra inning using international tie breaker.  Coach keeps having his catcher set up further and further outside because he doesn't want the offensive team to lay down a bunt to score the tying run.  I tell the catcher he needs to move back in while the coach has him set up almost outside of the left-handed batters box before the pitch is delivered.  Once the catcher makes the catch I call time and balk in the tying run from 3rd. 

 

The defense was essentially calling for a pitch-out but F2 was setting up for it (WAY-out) prior to the pitch. You were within your rights to call this infraction. But I don't think the idea to balk in the game tying run would have even occurred to me.

 

Agreed -- but if it was the game WINNING run ...

If you need a strike...call a strike...

If you need an out...call him out...

If you need a run...balk it in.    -Author unknown

[Rich Ives]

 

 

If the ball is going to be thrown that far outside, why doesn't the coach just ask for an intentional walk?

Coach maybe didn't know he had that option since it is not in OBR?

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The intent was to make it impossible for the OT to bunt the ball, not walk the batter.  I was thinking the same thing, I was also thinking this coach was an idiot, rat and had no faith in his defense.  He also had no clue.  The pitch before I called the balk the batter stretched across as far as he could while keeping his feet in the box holding the bat one-handed trying to get the bunt down and he almost pulled it off.  That's when the coach had his catcher set up so far outside that I didn't bother getting set.  I stood where the slot was supposed to be and made the call.

 

 

AND just how far from the batter do you have to pitch so it can't be hit and still keep it a strike?  Can't be done. With the tie breaker there's already a runner on 2B with 1B open. He was trying to walk the batter to set up forces and the batter kept trying to foil him. 

 

Were there pitch counts in place?  Sounds like it as this is also an offensive tactic to drive up a pitch count.

[JaxRolo]

Let itgo and call a ball on every pitch.

[Ump29]

I had a similar situation but completely reversed. LH batter and catcher set up outside the RH batters box to try to catch runner on third. I called balk on the pitch and the R3 was the winning run in last inning. Game over.

[ricka56]

I had a similar situation but completely reversed. LH batter and catcher set up outside the RH batters box to try to catch runner on third. I called balk on the pitch and the R3 was the winning run in last inning. Game over.

 

If you're my partner, you're going to have to fight your way to the parking lot alone.

[ALStripes17]

I had a similar situation but completely reversed. LH batter and catcher set up outside the RH batters box to try to catch runner on third. I called balk on the pitch and the R3 was the winning run in last inning. Game over.

If you're my partner, you're going to have to fight your way to the parking lot alone.

The only way I would call this is if the runner was stealing 3B and F2 BLATANTLY went into the RH batter's box before the pitch.

Other than that, this stick would smell funny.

[Jimurray]

 

 

If the ball is going to be thrown that far outside, why doesn't the coach just ask for an intentional walk?

Coach maybe didn't know he had that option since it is not in OBR?

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The intent was to make it impossible for the OT to bunt the ball, not walk the batter.  I was thinking the same thing, I was also thinking this coach was an idiot, rat and had no faith in his defense.  He also had no clue.  The pitch before I called the balk the batter stretched across as far as he could while keeping his feet in the box holding the bat one-handed trying to get the bunt down and he almost pulled it off.  That's when the coach had his catcher set up so far outside that I didn't bother getting set.  I stood where the slot was supposed to be and made the call.

 

Two quotes from Wendelstedt make me think this was one of the rare times that this would be called (after advising the catcher not to do it):

 

"Wendelstedt: "This rule should only be enforced when the catcher is attempting to take advantage of the rule by leaving the box to prevent runners from being able to steal while the pitcher gives an intentional walk. Umpires have many other things to look for in this situation, than to completely focus on the catcher's feet.

This rule should only be enforced where the intent of the catcher is to gain an advantage..."

 

"This rule was put into place in order to still allow runners a chance to steal during an intentional walk. Until its inception, some catchers would move clear up the first or third base lines to take pitches. This additional distance would not only prevent runners from being able to get a jump, but would also guarantee that no batter would be able to reach out and take a pitch the "other way.""

[RingEmUp]

 

 

 

If the ball is going to be thrown that far outside, why doesn't the coach just ask for an intentional walk?

Coach maybe didn't know he had that option since it is not in OBR?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

The intent was to make it impossible for the OT to bunt the ball, not walk the batter.  I was thinking the same thing, I was also thinking this coach was an idiot, rat and had no faith in his defense.  He also had no clue.  The pitch before I called the balk the batter stretched across as far as he could while keeping his feet in the box holding the bat one-handed trying to get the bunt down and he almost pulled it off.  That's when the coach had his catcher set up so far outside that I didn't bother getting set.  I stood where the slot was supposed to be and made the call.

 

Two quotes from Wendelstedt make me think this was one of the rare times that this would be called (after advising the catcher not to do it):

 

"Wendelstedt: "This rule should only be enforced when the catcher is attempting to take advantage of the rule by leaving the box to prevent runners from being able to steal while the pitcher gives an intentional walk. Umpires have many other things to look for in this situation, than to completely focus on the catcher's feet.

This rule should only be enforced where the intent of the catcher is to gain an advantage..."

 

"This rule was put into place in order to still allow runners a chance to steal during an intentional walk. Until its inception, some catchers would move clear up the first or third base lines to take pitches. This additional distance would not only prevent runners from being able to get a jump, but would also guarantee that no batter would be able to reach out and take a pitch the "other way.""

 

 

I forgot to mention that the HT did have a successful steal of home earlier in the game.  I'm glad you brought this up.  I don't know if this was also part of the VT coaches thinking but it may have been there along with preventing a bunt attempt. 

 

I think someone asked the situation.  R1 on 3rd, one out, VT leads 8-7.  R1 had just hit a triple with the bases loaded and 1 out.