Safe or out?

[HammerPIAA]

Im PU......P throws wild pitch and R3 attempts to score from 3B.  C retrieves ball, throws quickly to P who is covering HP and applies tag on a bang bang play - tag was applied in time before R3 reached home, but I cant see if pitcher held ball due to dust, close play, etc................so I say "show me the ball"...............P goes to hold up glove to show ball and in process of doing so, ball flies out of glove.

 

Im ready to ring R3 up, but then call safe when I see the ball pop loose.

 

My thought is that he has to have complete control of the ball through the tag, which includes him showing me the ball.  If the ball pops out while doing so, then he really didnt have complete control of the ball through the tag.  DC objected briefly but then backed off when I explained this reasoning as noted before.

 

Did I make the right call?

[BRUMP]

With younger kids, I try to avoid using the "show me the ball" line for this reason. If possible try to take a step or two from your position to see if he maintained the ball throughout the tag. The older kids after the tag will almost always show you the ball immediately.

[HammerPIAA]

very good point.................although these were 12U players - so not sure what you would consider "younger kids"

[grayhawk]

As @BRUMP explains, it is our job to get into a position to see the ball to make the call.  If you judge an out but do not see the ball, then move yourself to get into a position to see it.  Never ask the fielder to show you the ball.  Showing you the ball is not the continuing action of the tag - it's a separate action initiated by you.

[HammerPIAA]

Thanks, Grayhawk  - excellent advice!

 

So advice aside, from a rules standpoint, since its not the continuing action of the tag............then technically I blew that call is what Im gathering?

[grayhawk]

Thanks, Grayhawk  - excellent advice!

 

So advice aside, from a rules standpoint, since its not the continuing action of the tag............then technically I blew that call is what Im gathering?

 

Hard to say.  If you feel he had secure possession through the tag, then call him out.  If you feel the ball wasn't securely held, then call him safe.  If the ball "flies out of the glove" when he raised it, then it's possible the it wasn't securely held.  Definitely a HTBT play.

[HammerPIAA]

Totally agreed - that was my thought process as well but I did base that largely on the ball flying out. My thought was, if ball flies out when he goes to show me the ball, then he didnt have full control.  

 

That being said, I appreciate the advice from both yourself and BRUMP regarding not using the "show me the ball" "mechanic".  That greatly diminishes the chance of that happening.  Thanks!

[JaxRolo]

Timing is key. Just wait to see what happens. Sounds like he had the ball then lost it when he tried to show it to you.

[HammerPIAA]

Its impossible for me to tell if that was the case.  As soon as he brought his glove up, the ball flew out.  He could have been "snowconing it"  which is why a simple glove raise make it fly loose.  It happened very quickly.  But although I was on top of the play, I agree with the other advice I was given that its my job to get in better position to actually see the glove without asking the kid to show me the ball.  The only drawback to that is that other plays can be happening at this is going on and if my having to dig through a tangle of arms, legs, a glove and dust to find that ball takes a little time, it could hinder the defense's ability to make a play.

[grayhawk]

Its impossible for me to tell if that was the case.  As soon as he brought his glove up, the ball flew out.  He could have been "snowconing it"  which is why a simple glove raise make it fly loose.  It happened very quickly.  But although I was on top of the play, I agree with the other advice I was given that its my job to get in better position to actually see the glove without asking the kid to show me the ball.  The only drawback to that is that other plays can be happening at this is going on and if my having to dig through a tangle of arms, legs, a glove and dust to find that ball takes a little time, it could hinder the defense's ability to make a play.

 

If that's the case, then the fielder should be doing something other than just waiting for you to find the ball - even if there were 2 outs already.  If he's oblivious to other plays going on, then that's on him.

[MPLSMatt]

Do others agree with not using "show me the ball?"  I've heard that at countless local clinics over the year and assumed that it was the correct mechanic.  

 

Also, if he's taking time to say "show me the ball", I don't think he's rushing the call.   On the plays where the guys sit there with a body piled on top of the glove/ball - do you really say nothing and do nothing until they start to get up?  A lot of times they sit and stair until you give them something one way or another (again - at younger levels).

 

I'm willing to change to not using it, but I've always thought it was a helpful way to tell everyone what you are waiting for.

 

Other perspectives?

[grayhawk]

Interested to hear others weigh in too, @MPLSMatt, but if you start to look in to see the ball, most of the time the fielder will do something to help you see it.  It's a natural reaction.  In most cases, "show me the ball" will work just fine - until it bites you in the ass like in the OP.

[HammerPIAA]

All excellent points brought up by everyone.   This discussion is EXACTLY why I come here to hear professional advice and perspective from this group!

 

I was also told that the "show me the ball" mechanic was proper.  But given some of the feedback today, I can see the advantages and disadvantages - tough call.

 

I'd also be interested in how others weigh in on this.  Am I in the minority or majority? 

 

In the end, all I want to do is be sure I get it right!

[noumpere]

It can be used; it's often over-used.

[Guest Roy Hobbes Jr.]

I would agree that this is one of those HTBT type plays.  With that said here are my thoughts.  The key to getting it correct is "Timing, timing and timing".  As we always say in my association, "Wait, wait and wait some more.  Nothing can happen until you make a call."  If you have good timing and wait typically the player will come up and show you the ball.  No need to ask him to show you the ball.  In this case, my guess is if you wait and have the good timing then when he brings ball up and it pops out then you would still have the out (again in the OP case it is really HTBT) - I would believe that I could sell this explanation to the coach as to why I had an out.  

 

I know this is one thing I have been working on for what seems like years - slow down the call which is hard in the excitement of the moment.  Great advice I just got this year is to make the coaches and fans suffer while waiting for the call..... Wait, Wait and after you process what you saw make the call.  Makes it even more exciting for them.  

[maven]

I have no problem with "show me the ball," and I don't think it bit the OP. I agree with @noumpere that it can be overused, but using it in a cloud of dust is OK by me.

 

What the OP must judge is whether the fielder had secure possession of the ball during the tag. If the act of showing the ball is continuing action from the tag and the ball flies out, then I've got no tag. The ball flying out was part of the same action of making the tag, a bit like F3 digging a ball out of the dirt and having it fly out of his mitt when he tries to pick it. Being in the mitt momentarily does not constitute secure possession.

 

If we have a cloud of dust... two players motionless for a moment...and only then a fielder raising his glove to show me the ball, and at that point the ball flies out, I've got a tag. The ball flying out was the result a separate action, equivalent to dropping the ball "on the transfer."

 

Whether you have one act or two is a judgment call that I can't help with unless we have video.

[law_reb]

I had a partner this spring in a high school game say, "Show me the ball" on a steal attempt of 2nd base.  2nd baseman held up his glove with the ball securely in it.  Then my partner gave the biggest, most emphatic safe call you could imagine.  The defensive team head coach had some questions for my partner. 

[HammerPIAA]

I had a partner this spring in a high school game say, "Show me the ball" on a steal attempt of 2nd base.  2nd baseman held up his glove with the ball securely in it.  Then my partner gave the biggest, most emphatic safe call you could imagine.  The defensive team head coach had some questions for my partner. 

 

haha on the SAFE call.  I can imagine the logic there confused some people!

 

Maven - looking back on it its definitely a HTBT - quite frankly, it didnt fall 100% into either scenario you describe above, but definitively leans closest to #1.  My request and the subsequent showing of the ball was (in my best judgment) during the natural flow of the play, and not after they had both been lying there for 2 or 3 seconds waiting for me to make a call.

[maven]

Maven - looking back on it its definitely a HTBT - quite frankly, it didnt fall 100% into either scenario you describe above, but definitively leans closest to #1.  My request and the subsequent showing of the ball was (in my best judgment) during the natural flow of the play, and not after they had both been lying there for 2 or 3 seconds waiting for me to make a call.

And THAT is why we get the big $$$.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

This is classic HTBT.

The age and level of play will teach you when to, and when not to ask to see the ball, as experienced players will do it without being asked.

I whole-heartedly agree with whoever said that the act of showing the ball is NOT a continuation of the play itself, it's a separate act.

 

Timing is the key.

WAIT till you're sure, then wait a bit longer.

[Jocko]

I have no issue with "show me the ball." I use it myself. But don't use it as a timing mechanism. Use it to confirm posession. The guy who ruled safe ater his SMTB request obviously spoke too quickly. Then, when the time came, he had changed his mind.