$100 Challenge

maven · January 29, 2014

Just thinking out loud.. Let's change the OP a little. Let's say the BR doesn't get hurt, rounds 1st, misses the bag, and is between 1st & 2nd when R2 is thrown out @home. Then the defense appeals @1st. We would all agree that's an advantageous 4th out and no run scores?

I understand one is an appeal, and the OP is a "put out" for lack of a better term. Either way, BR never touched first. I have a hard time seeing how a run scores one way and not the other.

You're concealing the significant difference: a missed base appeal of the BR at 1B is explicitly covered in the rules and grounds for an advantageous 4th out. The OP is not an appeal, and thus not grounds for a 4th out.

OBR introduces the concept of an advantageous 4th out in the context of baserunning appeals. 7.10 details ALL of the baserunning appeals (let's not muddy the waters further with "appeals" for BOO or check swings).

(a) retouch appeal

(b) missed base appeal

(c ) overrunning 1B appeal

(d) missed base at HP, runner doesn't return

THAT'S IT. Those are the only baserunning appeals. Those are the only plays where the defense may record an advantageous 4th out, per 7.10 (d). If you have a play that is not a baserunning appeal play per 7.10, there is no rule supporting a 4th out.

MidAmUmp · January 29, 2014

I could be way wrong here, but I would be SHOCKED if a college player in the dugout who is in charge of missed bases/runners leaving early, etc caught this and told a coach to appeal it. I just don't see a player who doesn't really know the rules being able to think quickly enough on his feet. There might be a few coaches who would figure it out, but I think they're even in the vast minority.

Oh, I don't know...perhaps a B/R rolling around on the ground in pain somewhere between home and first might tip someone off. Ray Charles might even pick up on that and he's been dead for 10 years.

Thunderheads · January 29, 2014

I could be way wrong here, but I would be SHOCKED if a college player in the dugout who is in charge of missed bases/runners leaving early, etc caught this and told a coach to appeal it. I just don't see a player who doesn't really know the rules being able to think quickly enough on his feet. There might be a few coaches who would figure it out, but I think they're even in the vast minority.

Oh, I don't know...perhaps a B/R rolling around on the ground in pain somewhere between home and first might tip someone off. Ray Charles might even pick up on that and he's been dead for 10 years.

Jason, he's not referring to the OP, he's referring to Mike Prince's post .............

MidAmUmp · January 29, 2014

Just thinking out loud.. Let's change the OP a little. Let's say the BR doesn't get hurt, rounds 1st, misses the bag, and is between 1st & 2nd when R2 is thrown out @home. Then the defense appeals @1st. We would all agree that's an advantageous 4th out and no run scores?

I understand one is an appeal, and the OP is a "put out" for lack of a better term. Either way, BR never touched first. I have a hard time seeing how a run scores one way and not the other.

You're concealing the significant difference: a missed base appeal of the BR at 1B is explicitly covered in the rules and grounds for an advantageous 4th out. The OP is not an appeal, and thus not grounds for a 4th out.

OBR introduces the concept of an advantageous 4th out in the context of baserunning appeals. 7.10 details ALL of the baserunning appeals (let's not muddy the waters further with "appeals" for BOO or check swings).

(a) retouch appeal

(b) missed base appeal

(c ) overrunning 1B appeal

(d) missed base at HP, runner doesn't return

THAT'S IT. Those are the only baserunning appeals. Those are the only plays where the defense may record an advantageous 4th out, per 7.10 (d). If you have a play that is not a baserunning appeal play per 7.10, there is no rule supporting a 4th out.

This is where everyone is disagreeing. This is the reason J/R says - Not an appeal, prior to this play scenario. That's also why I originally said it's not an appeal. So the question comes down to this...

Can a force out be an advantageous 4th out, or does the book require the defense to recognize B/R not reaching 1st and tag him (or 1st base) instead of making a play on R2 at the plate, and that is the only way to negate the run(s)?

As I said last night, my head was mush. I'll do some more research and see what I come up with. For now, I'm standing by no runs score, but again could be persuaded the other way.

MidAmUmp · January 29, 2014

I could be way wrong here, but I would be SHOCKED if a college player in the dugout who is in charge of missed bases/runners leaving early, etc caught this and told a coach to appeal it. I just don't see a player who doesn't really know the rules being able to think quickly enough on his feet. There might be a few coaches who would figure it out, but I think they're even in the vast minority.

Oh, I don't know...perhaps a B/R rolling around on the ground in pain somewhere between home and first might tip someone off. Ray Charles might even pick up on that and he's been dead for 10 years.

Jason, he's not referring to the OP, he's referring to Mike Prince's post .............

Perhaps, but either way ZM is an idiot and needs his balls busted every chance possible. Did you know he takes an hour long shower after games?

At the very least he could have used the quote option so we would know who he was replying to in a 3-page thread. See...he's an idiot.

zm1283 · January 29, 2014

I could be way wrong here, but I would be SHOCKED if a college player in the dugout who is in charge of missed bases/runners leaving early, etc caught this and told a coach to appeal it. I just don't see a player who doesn't really know the rules being able to think quickly enough on his feet. There might be a few coaches who would figure it out, but I think they're even in the vast minority.

Oh, I don't know...perhaps a B/R rolling around on the ground in pain somewhere between home and first might tip someone off. Ray Charles might even pick up on that and he's been dead for 10 years.

Yeah, I wasn't really talking about the injury situation. I was thinking more along the lines of just missing first base and the other team realizing they could even appeal it for a 4th out. The kid in the dugout may see it, but I don't think many would think to appeal it since the third out was made somewhere else.

With a kid rolling around on the ground....maybe. Some coaches would try to appeal it and some still wouldn't have a clue. Like you said the other night: There are bases missed all the time, even in college games, and no one even sees that.

zm1283 · January 29, 2014

I could be way wrong here, but I would be SHOCKED if a college player in the dugout who is in charge of missed bases/runners leaving early, etc caught this and told a coach to appeal it. I just don't see a player who doesn't really know the rules being able to think quickly enough on his feet. There might be a few coaches who would figure it out, but I think they're even in the vast minority.

Oh, I don't know...perhaps a B/R rolling around on the ground in pain somewhere between home and first might tip someone off. Ray Charles might even pick up on that and he's been dead for 10 years.

Jason, he's not referring to the OP, he's referring to Mike Prince's post .............

Perhaps, but either way ZM is an idiot and needs his balls busted every chance possible. Did you know he takes an hour long shower after games?

At the very least he could have used the quote option so we would know who he was replying to in a 3-page thread. See...he's an idiot.

It takes time to look this good.

maven · January 29, 2014

This is where everyone is disagreeing. This is the reason J/R says - Not an appeal, prior to this play scenario. That's also why I originally said it's not an appeal. So the question comes down to this...
Can a force out be an advantageous 4th out, or does the book require the defense to recognize B/R not reaching 1st and tag him (or 1st base) instead of making a play on R2 at the plate, and that is the only way to negate the run(s)?

I understand that this is the point of disagreement. The bit I tried to add in my last post is that it matters that the concept of the advantageous 4th out appears in 7.10, the rule concerning appeals.

We don't get to call a 4th out for just anything. It must be an appeal play. Or so say I.

MidAmUmp · January 29, 2014

I could be way wrong here, but I would be SHOCKED if a college player in the dugout who is in charge of missed bases/runners leaving early, etc caught this and told a coach to appeal it. I just don't see a player who doesn't really know the rules being able to think quickly enough on his feet. There might be a few coaches who would figure it out, but I think they're even in the vast minority.

Oh, I don't know...perhaps a B/R rolling around on the ground in pain somewhere between home and first might tip someone off. Ray Charles might even pick up on that and he's been dead for 10 years.

Jason, he's not referring to the OP, he's referring to Mike Prince's post .............

Perhaps, but either way ZM is an idiot and needs his balls busted every chance possible. Did you know he takes an hour long shower after games?

At the very least he could have used the quote option so we would know who he was replying to in a 3-page thread. See...he's an idiot.

It takes time to look this good.

Wal-Mart sells mirrors for less than $5. I suggest making the investment.

Jimurray · January 29, 2014

One thing mentioned in the ABUA thread is that the current BRD now has OBR not allowing the appeal as opposed to FED and NCAA. The 2011 BRD had everyone allowing it. So Carl must have talked to someone now in authority in OBR and changed that interp.

Rich Ives · January 29, 2014

MidAmUmp: J/R has been wrong too many times. Get the MLBUM, PBUC, and WUM.

Texas Manny · January 29, 2014

Rule 2.00: An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team.

Rule 7.10: (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

Rule 7.10 AR: Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent fourth out. If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has left the field when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

By looking at the face value of the rules, and in the spirit, the failure of the BR to touch first base is a violation of the rules. He is required to go to first, where he would be declared safe by the umpire, reaches safely on a hit, error, award, or other reason, or is declared out for having been tagged, forced, or declared out by the umpire by other rule, or out on appeal.

7.10 allows the defense to appeal provided they say it is an appeal and they execute it properly by throwing to the offended base, or tagging the individual appealed on. Since this would be a fourth out, the umpire may need to recognize the fourth out, and because the BR was put out before touching 1st for the third out, no run may score, Rule 4.09(1).

7.10B allows two conditions: He fails to touch each base in order before he is tagged, and he fails to touch each base in order before the missed base is tagged. In your play, they tag the BR directly.

Three outs no runs (If you follow all of this easy to read logic).

Jim Evans concurs

Harry's manual disagrees

MLBUM says nothing on it.

PBUC says nothing on it.

I recognize the BR being tagged, it is advantageous for the defense to nullify the run through the running violation, 4.09, and no runs score. The BR violated the rules. He didn't run to first as required by rule, even though he got injured. Tough noogies. Three outs. NO RUNS SCORE.

I don't see how you can just ignore the BR's running voilation because the apparent 3rd out was made at home. Not running to first after a ball is hit is a rule violation and can be appealed. (5.04, 5.06)

This is a great break-down however ...........7.10 won't apply to the B/R, because he hasn't aqcuired first base yet, ... he's still the 'batter' ...... yes?

His status changes from batter to batter-runner. That change allows 4.09 and 7.10 to be activated.

Texas Manny · January 29, 2014

MidAmUmp: J/R has been wrong too many times. Get the MLBUM, PBUC, and WUM.

WUM disagrees and says run scores.

MLBUM says nothing on the matter.

PBUC says nothing on the matter.

I checked last night. I do not own a J/R manual.

Thunderheads · January 29, 2014

Rule 2.00: An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team.

Rule 7.10: (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

Rule 7.10 AR: Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent fourth out. If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has left the field when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

By looking at the face value of the rules, and in the spirit, the failure of the BR to touch first base is a violation of the rules. He is required to go to first, where he would be declared safe by the umpire, reaches safely on a hit, error, award, or other reason, or is declared out for having been tagged, forced, or declared out by the umpire by other rule, or out on appeal.

7.10 allows the defense to appeal provided they say it is an appeal and they execute it properly by throwing to the offended base, or tagging the individual appealed on. Since this would be a fourth out, the umpire may need to recognize the fourth out, and because the BR was put out before touching 1st for the third out, no run may score, Rule 4.09(1).

7.10B allows two conditions: He fails to touch each base in order before he is tagged, and he fails to touch each base in order before the missed base is tagged. In your play, they tag the BR directly.

Three outs no runs (If you follow all of this easy to read logic).

Jim Evans concurs

Harry's manual disagrees

MLBUM says nothing on it.

PBUC says nothing on it.

I recognize the BR being tagged, it is advantageous for the defense to nullify the run through the running violation, 4.09, and no runs score. The BR violated the rules. He didn't run to first as required by rule, even though he got injured. Tough noogies. Three outs. NO RUNS SCORE.

I don't see how you can just ignore the BR's running voilation because the apparent 3rd out was made at home. Not running to first after a ball is hit is a rule violation and can be appealed. (5.04, 5.06)

This is a great break-down however ...........7.10 won't apply to the B/R, because he hasn't aqcuired first base yet, ... he's still the 'batter' ...... yes?

His status changes from batter to batter-runner. That change allows 4.09 and 7.10 to be activated.

Ok, but he must acquire 1st before he's a runner, correct?

maven · January 29, 2014

Ok, but he must acquire 1st before he's a runner, correct?

No, the batter-runner is a runner and so subject to the baserunning rules.

He's the batter-runner until we have a new batter and regardless of whether he ends up on 1B, 2B, 3B, or scores (HR).

MidAmUmp · January 29, 2014

MidAmUmp: J/R has been wrong too many times. Get the MLBUM, PBUC, and WUM.

Thanks! Don't know how I've ever made it this far... :wave: I have all but the Wendelstedt Manual, basically because they've never given it to me :tantrum:

This is the problem with all of these manuals...they all have mistakes. Honestly, I take all of them with a grain of salt. That's why most upper echelon umpires aren't rules gurus. They understand the intent of the rules but can't quote them.

grayhawk · January 29, 2014

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond. I am in the camp that says run scores. This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent â€œfourth out.â€"

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book. Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out. Score the run.

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

JaxRolo · January 29, 2014

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond. I am in the camp that says run scores. This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent â€œfourth out.â€"

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book. Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out. Score the run.

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

It will not get you a Venti!

grayhawk · January 29, 2014

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond. I am in the camp that says run scores. This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent â€œfourth out.â€"

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book. Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out. Score the run.

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

It will not get you a Venti!

conbo61 · January 29, 2014

MidAmUmp: J/R has been wrong too many times. Get the MLBUM, PBUC, and WUM.

Does anyone know if there is going to be 2014 editions of the MLBUM and Wendelstedt Manuals? I sent an email up to Wendelstedt, but did not hear back.

I THINK there may be a change in it as it pertains to an earlier set of posts. (NOT trying to stir things up.)

johnnyg08 · January 29, 2014

I haven't checked BRD yet. I've also noticed that nobody has cited the BRD. I'll take a look tonight.

Texas Manny · January 29, 2014

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond. I am in the camp that says run scores. This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent â€œfourth out.â€"

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book. Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out. Score the run.

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

How do you explain away 7.10B which is part of the appeal rule? Just asking is all...

Jimurray · January 29, 2014

@johnny, I think you missed missed my previous post #60.

Off topic, Why doesn't quote work and I can't copy and paste?

Thunderheads · January 29, 2014

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond. I am in the camp that says run scores. This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent â€œfourth out.â€"

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book. Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out. Score the run.

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

How do you explain away 7.10B which is part of the appeal rule? Just asking is all...

It doesn't apply, re-read Grayhawks post .....

noumpere · January 29, 2014

I'm getting a flashback to the days of McGriffs and r.s.o

We went round and round on this play and for every good argument that the run scores was a good play where "fairness" would say the run should not score (and vice versa of course).

And we didn't have nearly half of these fancy manuals we have now a days.

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