Dead ball or not??

[DFDUmpire]

With bases loaded and one out ( I am the field umpire), batter hits slow roller between P and 3B--3B makes throw to 1B which possibly pulled 1B off the bag---I immediately signal to the home plate umpire who confirms that the 1B indeed was pulled from the bag on the throw and the runner was safe.  The batter/runner who thought he was out, begins to run back to the dugout.  The 1B runs and tags him.  Question--was it automatically a dead ball situation when I signaled to the umpire for his call?  I called the runner out.....did I tank this call?

[BRUMP]

unless this was a formal conference im giving the out depending on how far he away from first he got. its the BR's responsibility to wait for a call. and btw if the batter clearly thought he was out, your parnter may have missed this one!

[noumpere]

It's not automatically a dead ball so you have to rely on the "immediately return to first" provision of overrunning first base in 7.08c I think.  If he didn't get very far (and I cant imagine he did based on the way you described the play) then Id still have him safe at first.

[semper_fi_72]

First, why did you immediately go to the PU to make the call?

You make your call SAFE/OUT.

If there is a question of a possible pulled foot that you did not see because of position, angle or anything else, you wait till they request time, you grant time and they come ask you to possibly get help from your partner for the possible pulled foot.

You definitely tanked the mechanics.

[kristoffae]

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

 

Own you calls on the bases.  If you have to fix something that can be fixed, wait to be asked to go to your partner and then fix it.

[mjr_2013]

Semper and LMFAO - Some guys pregame this Jimmy the umpire style of point BU to PU... If it's pregamed, both umpires expect it, and it is the appropriate kind of play to point on, I don't have a problem with it.

[semper_fi_72]

Semper and LMFAO - Some guys pregame this Jimmy the umpire style of point BU to PU... If it's pregamed, both umpires expect it, and it is the appropriate kind of play to point on, I don't have a problem with it.

Agreed

It is a "old" mechanic no longer used and shouldn't be used.

[mjr_2013]

 

Semper and LMFAO - Some guys pregame this Jimmy the umpire style of point BU to PU... If it's pregamed, both umpires expect it, and it is the appropriate kind of play to point on, I don't have a problem with it.

Agreed

It is a "old" mechanic no longer used and shouldn't be used.

 

 

I agree with this - I know I'll never point at my partner mid play!!

[NFUA_44]

With bases loaded and one out ( I am the field umpire), batter hits slow roller between P and 3B--3B makes throw to 1B which possibly pulled 1B off the bag---I immediately signal to the home plate umpire who confirms that the 1B indeed was pulled from the bag on the throw and the runner was safe.  The batter/runner who thought he was out, begins to run back to the dugout.  The 1B runs and tags him.  Question--was it automatically a dead ball situation when I signaled to the umpire for his call?  I called the runner out.....did I tank this call?

Guys;

He did make his own call, as highlighted above, it's just not that clear in the original posting.  It looks like the BR was heading towards the dugout because his initial call was "out".  He then went to his partner who reversed it.  The ball wouldn't be dead because you went to your partner, but his changing of the call certainly changes that BR's status.  You can't really punish him when you sent him packing with an out call.

 

DFDUmpire, as others have said, make sure you pre-game this situation with your partners in the future to avoid any further problems.  In my minds eye you did the right thing by making the call.  You probably would have been better served to do as Semper_Fi suggested and wait until they ask you to get help, at which point you can have a conversation with your partner and then change the call if necessary.  At that point then your simply putting the BR back on the bag instead of trying to sort out if the ball was dead because you went to your partner.  This also keeps you from putting your partner in a tough spot in case he was watching a touch at third, or another responsibility he had at the time.  If you had this discussion between yourselves then he could tell you he couldn't help instead of looking bad from across the field.

[Umpire in Chief]

Also, you can sometimes give a quick inconspicuous glance to your partner. as part of your timing. 

[kristoffae]

 

Guys;

 

He did make his own call, as highlighted above, it's just not that clear in the original posting. 

 

 

Wrong.  He called him out on the tag after his initial call was to point at his partner.  He never made an immediate safe/out on the initial play at first.  His immediate call was to point at his partner.  And so then you get a nice mess to clean up after all the confusion.

[Guest NFUA_44]

That's not how I read it, but hey I've been wrong before, and will be again, probably sometime in the next couple of hours!

[JaxRolo]

That's not how I read it, but hey I've been wrong before, and will be again, probably sometime in the next couple of hours

It's not the first and probably not the last time.

[DFDUmpire]

Your right about it being "old mechanics" and I should have made the call first (which I tought he was safe) and then if there was some questions--then confer with the PU. We have worked together before and have done the same thing before...which is a habit I need to break!  Thanks for the help all!

 Calling time to discuss a call removes any doubt if it is a dead ball situation.  Lesson learned!

[BigUmp56]

 

Semper and LMFAO - Some guys pregame this Jimmy the umpire style of point BU to PU... If it's pregamed, both umpires expect it, and it is the appropriate kind of play to point on, I don't have a problem with it.

Agreed

It is a "old" mechanic no longer used and shouldn't be used.

 

 

I don't know that I agree here, Lou. In my opinion it's better to immediately go to the PU who should be up the line looking for PF/ST and ask him if the fielder held the bag, then make the call. When done correctly it makes the crew look sharp and shows they're working as a team.

 

Tim.

[kristoffae]

 

 

Semper and LMFAO - Some guys pregame this Jimmy the umpire style of point BU to PU... If it's pregamed, both umpires expect it, and it is the appropriate kind of play to point on, I don't have a problem with it.

Agreed

It is a "old" mechanic no longer used and shouldn't be used.

 

 

I don't know that I agree here, Lou. In my opinion it's better to immediately go to the PU who should be up the line looking for PF/ST and ask him if the fielder held the bag, then make the call. When done correctly it makes the crew look sharp and shows they're working as a team.

 

Tim.

 

 

The crew in the OP did it "correctly" and look what they ended up with. A mess. I doubt anyone watching was saying wow that crew looked sharp. Please please please own your calls on the bases. Nothing says I don't want to make a tough call quite like pointing at the other guy to make the tough call. Just sayin.

[Mike Prince]

Agreed.  I would rather make the call as BU, own it and be asked to get help from the PU rather than complicating things by not making any call and going straight to my partner (who I hoped was looking and in this case likely wasn't as he had other responsibilities over watching F3's foot)

[BigUmp56]

 

 

 

Semper and LMFAO - Some guys pregame this Jimmy the umpire style of point BU to PU... If it's pregamed, both umpires expect it, and it is the appropriate kind of play to point on, I don't have a problem with it.

Agreed

It is a "old" mechanic no longer used and shouldn't be used.

 

 

I don't know that I agree here, Lou. In my opinion it's better to immediately go to the PU who should be up the line looking for PF/ST and ask him if the fielder held the bag, then make the call. When done correctly it makes the crew look sharp and shows they're working as a team.

 

Tim.

 

 

The crew in the OP did it "correctly" and look what they ended up with. A mess. I doubt anyone watching was saying wow that crew looked sharp. Please please please own your calls on the bases. Nothing says I don't want to make a tough call quite like pointing at the other guy to make the tough call. Just sayin.

 

 

The play in the OP ended up a mess because they didn't make a call in a timely manner. You do NOT make a call based on what you're unsure of, and there are times when you're going to be straightlined on a PF and have no idea on a ST, whether you're at 90 degrees or TSF. It looks terrible when an umpire makes a call then has to be asked to go for help only to have the call overturned. 99% of the time you're going to be able to make all calls at first without incident, but there's a reason the PU has the BR up the line, and those situations are well documented. Call what you're unsure of if you'd like. I'm going to continue to use the tried and true mechanics of going to the umpire who has this responsibility.

 

Tim.

[Typhoon]

I don't know, with bases loaded and only 1 out I think as the PU I would be hanging around home in case they tried to get the force at home to stop R3 from scoreing a run. I may glance down to 1st after it is established that the throw is in fact going there, but I am still responsible for R3's touch at home.

Tony

[mstaylor]

Bases loaded, do your best to get an angle and make the call. If you see a pull, safe him. If you don't see a pull, call him out. If you think he may have pulled, call him out. Don't guess an out, but make the call. With bases loaded, the PU has the R3 touching home, R2 touching third. The last thing he has time to do is watch the BU's call. 

[Jocko]

If you come immediately to me with the Jimmy the ump bit and holler "Whaddayagot?" I'm gonna respond with "Balls and Strikes."

Make your call. Then go for help if needed. Plain and simple.

[johnnyg08]

I think I agree.   Make the call, let them know what you have:  "safe, he's off the base" (attach proper mechanic here).

 

 

Who knows, you might have it correct.

 

I think as base umpires we need to use proper mechanics to own our calls on the bases.