mjr_2013

I think that's different though because you don't know the ball is lodged. If I see a ball skip over top of the tarp and wedge itself between the tarp and the wall, I'm not going to keep it live, because I know it's lodged. There's no need. Plus no one (especially not me) wants the camera on my fat ass jogging to the outfield to check on a lodged baseball. 🤣 Here, presuming you see the catcher put the ball into his pocket, you know it's lodged. Kill it loud and kill it often. Point at the ball in his pocket and I bet he takes it out, and now the optics are totally different. We don't have a dogpile, players running the bases, an F4 searching for the ball frantically, and two teams thinking they've won... Instead, we have an umpire who is fully in control, with an emphatic call. I agree with @beerguy55that the lackluster mechanics are inseparable from the fielder's actions. If a textbook drop third mechanic and vocal is given, we don't get this problem... There is a difference between intentionally (willfully) putting the ball in the pocket and intentionally (with the intent to deceive) putting the ball in the pocket. In this scenario, the catcher was absolutely in the first, but far from the second category. Putting the ball in the pocket was stupidity, not 4D chess. I think beerguy is also absolutely correct also that a lot of this is Monday Morning Quarterbacking based on the results of the play and what we think is "just" in a postmortem dissection. I don't think keeping a lodged ball, that you know is lodged, live while you await the results of the play, is at all supported by rule. Finally, I agree with @Thunderheadsthat I will be fascinated to see if the NFHS comes out with an AR on this.

NFHS requires two bases. OBR and NCAA I’m probably doing one base. I’m okay with anyone who awards two though.

When the F4 is frantically looking for the ball, he isn't given the opportunity to make a play. If not a single player looked for the ball, and there was just a dogpile on the pitcher which included every defensive player, I think there is a case to be made that the ball was not "wedged, stuck, lost, or unreachable" per 2-4-4. Personally, I would still say it's wedged, and would be killing it as soon as it's put in the pocket, but for the sake of argument I won't go there. The ball was absolutely lost and unreachable to F4, by way of it being lodged in F2's pocket. You say the defense didn't, I say the defense couldn't. If F2 threw the ball into the second deck in celebration instead of tucking it into his pocket, I don't think there is any question we would award two bases, and I think this is basically the same thing. Either way, his action made the ball unreachable to the rest of the defense. We aren't asking to assume an out or wild throw, we are just looking to acknowledge the lodged ball and award bases accordingly.

It's not about choosing who we are penalizing. It's about using the rules at our disposal to make the objectively correct call. In OBR and NFHS you are allowed to score them if you feel that common sense and fair play permit them to score, though I would disagree pretty vehemently, and I think most leagues and associations would not support it, and might even overturn it on protest. It would come down to whether "common sense and fair play" can be sufficiently quantified so as to separate it from umpire judgment. I don't think common sense permits two runs to score on a U3K, but a ruling would probably vary league to league. I digress... In NFHS though, it's two bases. We don't get to do more. If a rule set wants this particular play penalized so as to allow everyone to score, they will amend the lodged ball rule to do so. If it doesn't take a brand new rule to cover it, we can't use 10-2-3(g). We just have to work with what we got. Examples where 8.01(c) (or 10-2-3(g) or 3-6(b)) was correctly invoked are incredibly rare. The only modern instances were when Randy Johnson struck a bird with a pitch, and when the switch hitter met the switch pitcher for the first time. There was nothing addressing these scenarios at the time, and it required completely new interpretations (MLBUM for a pitched ball hitting an animal) and completely new rules (5.07(f) for ambidextrous pitchers) to address the hole. This doesn't. It's just a lodged ball.

Hi Jeff!! I think the others definition of a throw beat me to the punch… though I would have loved to say it’s because a baseball is either batted, pitched, or thrown to get you to pull your hair out. 🤣 Hope you’re having a good seaso

I love this play. Enough to revive this old thing. At first glance I saw some mechanics that left something to be desired but nothing worth writing home about. On a second view is when I saw the ball go into the pocket, it made me say "... huh!" To my knowledge, there is no AR, rule, comment, or interpretation regarding an intentionally lodged ball like this. OBR 5.06(c)(7) Comment mentioned above comes close... "If a ball is intentionally placed inside a player’s uniform (e.g., a pants pocket) for the purpose of deceiving a base runner, the umpire shall call “Time.” The umpire will place all runners at least one base (or more if warranted, in the umpire’s judgment, in order to nullify the action of the ball being put out of play), from the base they originally occupied." Emphasis is mine. This doesn't apply here, because the ball was placed in the pocket for the purpose of keeping it, not for the purpose of deceiving a base runner. The only one deceived was his own teammate. Moving to just lodged balls generally.... OBR 5.06(b)(4)(F): A ball is considered lodged if, in the judgment of the umpire, the natural trajectory of the flight of the ball is interrupted long enough to affect further play.... WUM makes this umpire discretion under the guise of common sense and fair play as to bases to award. Here, I think this is satisfied. The natural trajectory of the flight of the ball is interrupted long enough to affect further play, which is evidenced by the second baseman being unable to locate the ball despite searching for it. If the ball is not lodged, F4 is able to locate it and potentially make a play. If no one knows that the game is not over, and the runners just keep on running while all the defensive players are dogpiling, I think there is an interesting case to be made that the ball was not interrupted long enough to affect further play... but I wouldn't go there (see below). NFHS 2-4-4: A baseball that remains on the playing field but has become wedged, stuck, lost, or unreachable, is defined to be a lodged ball. If the ball impacts any object in the course of play, stops abruptly, and does not fall or roll immediately, it is considered lodged. It is a dead ball (5-1-1f-3,4; 5-1-1g-4). Exception: if a ball becomes stuck in the webbing of the fielder’s glove, it remains in play. The glove/ball combination is treated as a live ball. The ball in the back pocket is not stuck, lost, or unreachable (at least to F2), but I think it is wedged. It is arguably stuck, lost, and un(reasonably)reachable to others, including F4. NFHS 5-1-1: A ball becomes dead immediately when... (g) a pitch or any other thrown ball... (4) lodges in an umpire's, catcher's, or offensive player's equipment or uniform... I think this is satisfied. It's not a pitch and while it doesn't feel like a throw, his act of placing the ball in the pocket has to be something. I think his release of the ball into the pocket is a throw. NFHS 8-3-3(c) makes this two bases from time of lodge. NCAA 8-3(l): If a fair batted or thrown ball becomes lodged in a player’s uniform, the ball shall be declared dead and bases awarded at the umpire’s discretion... This one is also umpire discretion (common sense and fair play), though by rule instead of interpretation. I think I've got a lodged thrown ball in all three sets. F2 was really stupid, but the rules don't generally let us penalize stupidity for the sake of stupidity on our own accord. Use the rules to penalize stupidity. I would have held a strong "no catch" signal on the U3K, and pumped it multiple times while moving up the line for a "no tag" when the runner advanced following the tag attempt. (Probably prevents this whole sh!tshow in the first place). When he tucks the ball away, come out and emphatically call time (several times because of the chaos). In Fed, give BR 2nd and score R2... OBR and NCAA, I don't think common sense and fair play advocate scoring multiple runs on a dropped third strike miscommunication. In fact, I think there is far more support for giving BR 1st and R2 3rd. If it was a U3K pitch that lodged in the backstop, that's what we would do. Wish Carl Childress was still around to chime in on this!! I'm definitely open to being proven wrong and having my mind changed on this too.

We got 12 here... I had a couple of games in a dome the same day. Worked out well though because only like 6" had fell when I left for the games and 6" fell while I was at the games so I didn't get stuck in either place!

What it looked like to me was that they went to replay for both calls at one time... The spectator INT possibility occurred first so they looked at that. When that came back as call stands (no INT), they went to the play at the plate, where it was overturned.

That referee video brought everyone down, hopefully this can bring everyone back up again. This story ran a month ago, I checked and didn't see it anywhere on here. Very cool, uplifting story. http://barrie.ctvnews.ca/mobile/a-nine-year-old-umpire-is-inspiring-players-and-fans-alike-1.2508487 .

It's in the WUM. I don't have it on me though. A trip begins when a manager or coach crosses the foul line and ends when they leave the mound... Should they attempt to return to the mound after the trip has ended, the umpire should instruct them they cannot. If the manager does make two trips with the same batter up, the pitcher must finish pitching to that batter, and then must be removed. If the manager was warned not to return to the mound but does anyway, he will also be ejected.

"Mom! I told you to stop coming to my games!"

Hey Bobby. Glad to hear you're recovering well. Scary s*** though! Get well soon!

Worked a game in the cold Monday... the hail Tuesday... the snow Wednesday... the BITTER cold Thursday... I took the 50-degree game today with gratitude!!

It was loud enough for the infield to hear it, but my partner did not hear it from behind the plate. There was a lot of yelling in the crowd, as they didn't understand what was going on (shocking, I know), and that would have been the out to end the game. Your top line is what makes me feel like I got it right. If everyone had been angels from the first pitch and then this occurs in the intensity of the moment, I'm probably just going to give him a knock it off. Everything was ready to boil over at that point though, and I believe I got this one right.

Even in this case where it appears the pitcher was just wondering what the call was? OP says he calmly asked and then went right back to the mound. It reads to me like he just didn't know what happened, and it doesn't read like he "demanded" anything. This. He just approached me and said that he didn't see what happened and asked if I could explain it. I had no problems explaining what occurred to him, only a problem with the F9 afterwards.