Hall of Fame Vote

[JaxRolo]

No one selected!

http://m.wokv.com/news/ap/top-news/judgment-day-for-bonds-clemens-sosa-at-hall/nTqtm/

[Jocko]

They got it right

[BRUMP]

The only one I'm iffy on is Biggio. I think 3k hits deserves first ballot but I can live with the results.

[Jocko]

The only one I'm iffy on is Biggio. I think 3k hits deserves first ballot but I can live with the results.

__________________________________________________________________________

Craig Biggio was a hard working player. He started as F2, moved to F4, eventually to OF. Most HBP of any player. Good work ethic. Good player. Good character. He just got caught up in the stench of the others. The rest can go :spit:

[SnareDrum]

Sad in a small way, but it's the right thing. Message sent and received loud and clear. I hope that Biggio doesn't STAY caught up in it. Somebody has to get in from this tainted time period sooner or later, right?

 

A panel did vote in three from era before integration in 1946: Yankees owner Jacob Russert, umpire Hank O'Day, and barehanded catcher Deacon White.

[Umpire in Chief]

If I had a vote Biggio, Piazza & McGriff would have gotten my vote.

[johnnyg08]

I haven't done any research, but I watch a lot of baseball in the Piazza era and he was good, just don't think HOF good.  Crime Dog, should get in, Biggio  should be in...I think both of those guys will get in.  

 

Next year's class is going to be a very good class and I think it puts Black Jack Morris in his last year of eligibility in a tough spot.  

[Richvee]

I haven't done any research, but I watch a lot of baseball in the Piazza era and he was good, just don't think HOF good. Crime Dog, should get in, Biggio should be in...I think both of those guys will get in.

Next year's class is going to be a very good class and I think it puts Black Jack Morris in his last year of eligibility in a tough spot.

Couldn't disagree more about Piazza. He's one of the best hitting catchers of all time. .308 ba, 427 HR's (most by any catcher all time), from '93 to '01 he didn't bat under .300, his lowest RBI total was 92, and had over 100rbi six times. All this from the Catcher position.

I know I'm in the minority on Biggio, but I just don't see the "greatness" here. Yea, 3,060 hits more a product of longevity than anything else. .281 lifetime BA, batted .300 or better only 4 times in his career...Yeah, he's a gammer, good ballplayer. I just don't see the greatness.

McGriff and Raines getting snubbed bigtime and I can't figure that out.

Just checking and I'd like to add 7 top 10 finishes in the MVP voting, including 2 2nds a 3rd and a 4th place finish. Not to mention 12 all star games in 13 years. That's what I call a dominant player.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Richvee

[umpstu]

Sorry, I don't agree at all. Were steroids illegal in MLB during that time? Were they testing for it. I would have used it too. Throw Gaylord Perry and Phil Neikro out of the HOF for throwing the spitball. Hell, Neikro was caught with an emery board. Did Clemens ever get popped for steroids?  Bonds? What about Don Mattlingly and Lee Smith? And Jack Morris, 14 opening day starts. Look at how baseball has changed in the pitching aspect. Are they going to keep a pitcher out because he doesn't have a tone of complete games? Not their fault that the game changed and the bullpen plays a much larger role. The DH? Been around for a long time. When will they be recognized? 

[BRUMP]

I haven't done any research, but I watch a lot of baseball in the Piazza era and he was good, just don't think HOF good. Crime Dog, should get in, Biggio should be in...I think both of those guys will get in.

Next year's class is going to be a very good class and I think it puts Black Jack Morris in his last year of eligibility in a tough spot.

Couldn't disagree more about Piazza. He's one of the best hitting catchers of all time. .308 ba, 427 HR's (most by any catcher all time), from '93 to '01 he didn't bat under .300, his lowest RBI total was 92, and had over 100rbi six times. All this from the Catcher position.

I know I'm in the minority on Biggio, but I just don't see the "greatness" here. Yea, 3,060 hits more a product of longevity than anything else. .281 lifetime BA, batted .300 or better only 4 times in his career...Yeah, he's a gammer, good ballplayer. I just don't see the greatness.

McGriff and Raines getting snubbed bigtime and I can't figure that out.

Just checking and I'd like to add 7 top 10 finishes in the MVP voting, including 2 2nds a 3rd and a 4th place finish. Not to mention 12 all star games in 13 years. That's what I call a dominant player.

Biggio won a gold glove at F2 and F4. Don't forget for most of his life he played the most physically demanding position and still got 3k hits.

[gnhbua93]

Sorry, I don't agree at all. Were steroids illegal in MLB during that time? Were they testing for it. I would have used it too. Throw Gaylord Perry and Phil Neikro out of the HOF for throwing the spitball. Hell, Neikro was caught with an emery board. Did Clemens ever get popped for steroids?  Bonds? What about Don Mattlingly and Lee Smith? And Jack Morris, 14 opening day starts. Look at how baseball has changed in the pitching aspect. Are they going to keep a pitcher out because he doesn't have a tone of complete games? Not their fault that the game changed and the bullpen plays a much larger role. The DH? Been around for a long time. When will they be recognized? 

 

Totally agree with you the HOF it's not a church and many of the "good citizens" that are there are doubtful on their life out of the lines.  Also doubtful are many writers of the BBWA. With Sosa taking only 12.6% with the Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire.  aking 30 or more % make me doubt about the integrity and the character as human beings of the voters.  Another case is the Edgar Martínez case, the best DH of all time, with the DH trophy bearing his name.  With Molitor playing a thousand or more games on DH and being in the HOF.  Looks like to me taht being Latino playing baseball is a sin according to the BBWA.  JMHO.

[Replacematt]

Sorry, I don't agree at all. Were steroids illegal in MLB during that time?

Yep.

[Umpire in Chief]

Yes I almost forgot about Edgar Martinez, he should get in. 

 

Here are my thoughts on the steroid era. You have a number of high profile people who used along with many times more players who are less notable. No it wasn't illegal, they were not tested. 

 

In the book the 4th Ball, they talk about some of the biggest names of the old Yankees using "Greenies" (speed).

 

As long as there is competition, there will be people either trying to gain an edge or people outright cheating.  

 

We definitely have some people in the hall, Cobb comes to mind as an alleged racist & anti-Semite, who are far from Angels. I also think the Hall of Fame is an indirect reflection of who we as a society are at the time. Would a Cobb be inducted today in our politically correct society? How much does character matter? How much does the "charm" of a player weigh versus stats? I also think as we move forward things like what type of market did they play in did they play for a small market team or a large one. Another thing is salaries, where did they fall in regard to their peers, how does this relate to their market? If the are not considered already by the voters I'm sure they will be.

[Replacematt]

Totally agree with you the HOF it's not a church and many of the "good citizens" that are there are doubtful on their life out of the lines.

This isn't outside the lines. What they did was intended to affect, and did affect, what they did on the field.

[Replacematt]

No it wasn't illegal, they were not tested.

Yes, it was, at least since about 1990. Just because there wasn't an active search for it, it wasn't any less illegal.

Using an illegal bat is still illegal, even if we don't do pregame checks.

[scrounge]

and yes, Bonds WAS popped - in the sense that we know definitively that he used them. He admitted it! He just claimed he didn't know that was what the cream and clear was [wink wink]. Screw him, screw Sosa, and screw Mcgwire. Yea, it's not fair and LOTS of others used - but it's a good enough start to me to exclude the most prominent poster children.

 

As to the rest, I think there's perfectly non-steroid reasons to vote no. Morris? Even as a White Sox fan, I say meh. Biggio? Longevity more than excellence. Martinez? Maybe, I guess, I dunno. Lee Smith? No - Hall of Very Good, sure, not Hall of Fame.

[Richvee]

I haven't done any research, but I watch a lot of baseball in the Piazza era and he was good, just don't think HOF good. Crime Dog, should get in, Biggio should be in...I think both of those guys will get in.

Next year's class is going to be a very good class and I think it puts Black Jack Morris in his last year of eligibility in a tough spot.

Couldn't disagree more about Piazza. He's one of the best hitting catchers of all time. .308 ba, 427 HR's (most by any catcher all time), from '93 to '01 he didn't bat under .300, his lowest RBI total was 92, and had over 100rbi six times. All this from the Catcher position.

I know I'm in the minority on Biggio, but I just don't see the "greatness" here. Yea, 3,060 hits more a product of longevity than anything else. .281 lifetime BA, batted .300 or better only 4 times in his career...Yeah, he's a gammer, good ballplayer. I just don't see the greatness.

McGriff and Raines getting snubbed bigtime and I can't figure that out.

Just checking and I'd like to add 7 top 10 finishes in the MVP voting, including 2 2nds a 3rd and a 4th place finish. Not to mention 12 all star games in 13 years. That's what I call a dominant player.

Biggio won a gold glove at F2 and F4. Don't forget for most of his life he played the most physically demanding position and still got 3k hits.

 

So now gold gloves get you into the Hall? Tell that to Jim Kaat, Mark Belanger or Frank White. For the record, Biggio didn't win  GG at Catcher. You play long enough you can get 3000 hits. Doesn't make you a dominant player of your era...200 hit seasons by Biggio??? ONE. 

 

Did I mention Piazza won 10 STRAIGHT silver Slugger awards at the physically demanding position of Catcher. 

 

You want to put Biggio in for his 3000 hits, I guess that's OK, Hell, he's better than Mazeroski.    

[Jocko]

I haven't done any research, but I watch a lot of baseball

And he stays at Holiday Inn Express

[th3]

Ball 4?

[BRUMP]

I haven't done any research, but I watch a lot of baseball in the Piazza era and he was good, just don't think HOF good. Crime Dog, should get in, Biggio should be in...I think both of those guys will get in.

Next year's class is going to be a very good class and I think it puts Black Jack Morris in his last year of eligibility in a tough spot.

Couldn't disagree more about Piazza. He's one of the best hitting catchers of all time. .308 ba, 427 HR's (most by any catcher all time), from '93 to '01 he didn't bat under .300, his lowest RBI total was 92, and had over 100rbi six times. All this from the Catcher position.

I know I'm in the minority on Biggio, but I just don't see the "greatness" here. Yea, 3,060 hits more a product of longevity than anything else. .281 lifetime BA, batted .300 or better only 4 times in his career...Yeah, he's a gammer, good ballplayer. I just don't see the greatness.

McGriff and Raines getting snubbed bigtime and I can't figure that out.

Just checking and I'd like to add 7 top 10 finishes in the MVP voting, including 2 2nds a 3rd and a 4th place finish. Not to mention 12 all star games in 13 years. That's what I call a dominant player.

Biggio won a gold glove at F2 and F4. Don't forget for most of his life he played the most physically demanding position and still got 3k hits.

So now gold gloves get you into the Hall? Tell that to Jim Kaat, Mark Belanger or Frank White. For the record, Biggio didn't win GG at Catcher. You play long enough you can get 3000 hits. Doesn't make you a dominant player of your era...200 hit seasons by Biggio??? ONE.

Did I mention Piazza won 10 STRAIGHT silver Slugger awards at the physically demanding position of Catcher.

You want to put Biggio in for his 3000 hits, I guess that's OK, Hell, he's better than Mazeroski.

Your right my bad he didn't win gg at both spots he made all star at both spots and silver slugger at both spots. But while you say he played long enough to get to 3k I'm saying that 3k is a benchmark. Every 3k hit man (not including Rose and Palmeiro we know they shouldn't get in) since 1962 has been first ballot. The precedent was set.

[Umpire in Chief]

Ball 4?

 

I may be confusing my books as I read it long ago, but I believe this is it.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Ball-RosettaBooks-Sports-Classics-ebook/dp/B007MTR4AQ/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_t_2_G96M

[yawetag]

and yes, Bonds WAS popped - in the sense that we know definitively that he used them. He admitted it! He just claimed he didn't know that was what the cream and clear was [wink wink]. Screw him, screw Sosa, and screw Mcgwire.

 

Are you inferring McGwire didn't admit to it?

[Richvee]

I haven't done any research, but I watch a lot of baseball in the Piazza era and he was good, just don't think HOF good. Crime Dog, should get in, Biggio should be in...I think both of those guys will get in.

Next year's class is going to be a very good class and I think it puts Black Jack Morris in his last year of eligibility in a tough spot.

Couldn't disagree more about Piazza. He's one of the best hitting catchers of all time. .308 ba, 427 HR's (most by any catcher all time), from '93 to '01 he didn't bat under .300, his lowest RBI total was 92, and had over 100rbi six times. All this from the Catcher position.

I know I'm in the minority on Biggio, but I just don't see the "greatness" here. Yea, 3,060 hits more a product of longevity than anything else. .281 lifetime BA, batted .300 or better only 4 times in his career...Yeah, he's a gammer, good ballplayer. I just don't see the greatness.

McGriff and Raines getting snubbed bigtime and I can't figure that out.

Just checking and I'd like to add 7 top 10 finishes in the MVP voting, including 2 2nds a 3rd and a 4th place finish. Not to mention 12 all star games in 13 years. That's what I call a dominant player.

Biggio won a gold glove at F2 and F4. Don't forget for most of his life he played the most physically demanding position and still got 3k hits.

So now gold gloves get you into the Hall? Tell that to Jim Kaat, Mark Belanger or Frank White. For the record, Biggio didn't win GG at Catcher. You play long enough you can get 3000 hits. Doesn't make you a dominant player of your era...200 hit seasons by Biggio??? ONE.

Did I mention Piazza won 10 STRAIGHT silver Slugger awards at the physically demanding position of Catcher.

You want to put Biggio in for his 3000 hits, I guess that's OK, Hell, he's better than Mazeroski.

Your right my bad he didn't win gg at both spots he made all star at both spots and silver slugger at both spots. But while you say he played long enough to get to 3k I'm saying that 3k is a benchmark. Every 3k hit man (not including Rose and Palmeiro we know they shouldn't get in) since 1962 has been first ballot. The precedent was set.

 

Indeed 3K is a benchmark. As 300 wins are. I just don't agree. I don't think Suton belongs there either. Glavin, to me, is borderline as well. (Rode the coat tails of Maddux, Smoltz and a dominant team.)  Mike Fransesca calls them "compilers", not all time great dominant players of their era. I tend to agree. 

[ikeequa]

Jack Morris. He was one of the big-time clutch pitchers. World series titles with 2 teams. 1-0 10-inning complete game 7. 175 complete games. 2500 Ks. Can't believe he's not in already.