I cannot make THAT call

[Daniel]

Thursday night I was working solo for a 12U game, and I must say, it was by far the best game I've ever had working in this league. Full seven innings, in an hour & thirty to boot. Here's how it ended.

Bot. 7, tied game. Bases loaded, NO outs.

Line drive back to F1 - one out. F1 fires to F3 to nail R1 - two out. But guess who came into score and end the game!

Then DC appeals that R3 left early. There is no way in hell I seen R3's tag up, and never will in that situation. I came up with a strong "SAFE". Game over. I was not going to make THAT call. :fuel:

[ring-em-up12]

Don't you love it when coaches act like we have enough sets of eyes to see the entire field at once! I had a situation that was somewhat the same running a 2 man crew. Bases loaded I was PU and my partner went out to call the truble ball to right. Kid makes catch and then drops it on the transfer, then he kicks it. I've got the tag up at second and thrid and only Who knows about first because thats where he plays. long story short defence appeals first. You cant call the out unless you see it so runner on first was Safe. If they want to pay for it they can have a 6 man crew, but they didnt have one then.

[noumpere]

a 2 man crew. Bases loaded I was PU and my partner went out to call the truble ball to right.

wtf?

[Replacematt]

If they want to pay for it they can have a 6 man crew, but they didnt have one then.

Or they can have the two they paid for do their jobs properly.

[mjr_2013]

There is not seeing a call and there is choosing not to make a call... If you saw that he left early, it is your duty and job to call the out no matter the situation... If you didn't, and there was no way you could tell if he had left early or not, THEN you can't call an out you don't see and the game is over.

But to say you "cannot make THAT call" is not appropriate or right.

[Jimurray]

F3 did not throw home to get R3? Or was there no play on R3?

[NFUA_44]

a 2 man crew. Bases loaded I was PU and my partner went out to call the truble ball to right.

wtf?

Advanced mechanic? :fuel:

[JamesC]

a 2 man crew. Bases loaded I was PU and my partner went out to call the truble ball to right.

wtf?

Advanced mechanic?

Must be! I'm giving my partner one of those "WTH are you doing?!" looks and then we're having a long talk about it, and VERY soon!

[bam]

a 2 man crew. Bases loaded I was PU and my partner went out to call the truble ball to right.

wtf?

ball, but

2 man mechanics can't get every base. Don't know why BU is going out to right on a trouble ball but even if PU is taking that ball BU has touches at 2d and 3d. Only so many bases two guys can watch.

[johnnyg08]

With two man you should be able to get all touches.

Many times coaches will appeal just as a last ditch effort to steal an out.

[RC@54OUTS]

in one man , follow the ball. two plays to watch before seeing man coming home. no way you can see the tag up. good job. why anyone would go out to rf on any ball in two man is a mystery. PU has touch at third not BU.

[mstaylor]

I was having a conversation yesterday with a longtime LL coach. He was talking about a championship game he was in and the PU was a longtime LL umpire. His runner tagged and score for the winning run. The DM asked for an appeal and the PU banged the runner for leaving early. The OM questioned the PU, who says," He must have left early, the manager wouldn't lie" :tantrum:

[JaxRolo]

So he went out from the infield?

[NFUA_44]

So he went out from the infield?

Jax;

This would be the "advanced" part of said mechanic...............then again my superior intellect and witticism are often lost on others. So it could just be me.

[bam]

With two man you should be able to get all touches.

Many times coaches will appeal just as a last ditch effort to steal an out.

Bases loaded, long fly to left center. Who's got the the touch at first?

First base coach, that's who.

[NFUA_44]

With two man you should be able to get all touches.

Many times coaches will appeal just as a last ditch effort to steal an out.

Bases loaded, long fly to left center. Who's got the the touch at first?

First base coach, that's who.

No that would be BU responsibility on any fly ball into the V.

From the Evans Maximizing Manual, in part, Chapter 11.02 page237:

.................The base umpire is responsible for the tag-ups at first and second and any subsequent plays on runners returning to first, second, and third after a catch. The base umpires is responsible for all missed base appeals on all runners at first and second and he is also responsible for all missed appeals on the BR at third base. If the ball is not caught he has all plays at first, second and third, including any play on the batter-runner. (Diagram 11.3)

It's not easy, but as RichMSN has pointed out in another thread about getting help and positioning, getting the position to at least catch as much as you can is what's important. Anybody that has been around the game for a while knows that the 2 man system has it's holes, they are well documented, but most of the time, getting to a good position trumps most things.

[Jocko]

one of the many problems with 2 man. Gotta get the best position and angle you can and keep your head on a swivel.

[bam]

one of the many problems with 2 man. Gotta get the best position and angle you can and keep your head on a swivel.

So its one or the other. You can't get them all if there are holes.

Anyone with a decent baseball IQ can anticipate what SHOULD happen. Thats not always WHAT happens. 95% of the time 2 man gets all touches.

[Replacematt]

I hate to use absolutes, but...

There are never holes on a catch in the outfield in 2-man.

[noumpere]

With two man you should be able to get all touches.

Many times coaches will appeal just as a last ditch effort to steal an out.

Bases loaded, long fly to left center. Who's got the the touch at first?

First base coach, that's who.

Responsibility is BU of course as has been mentioned but a good Pu can help out here and while we cant always see if the base is touoched we can always see if the team cheated by cutting the corner. Sometimes thats all you can do in 2-man

[Jocko]

I hate to use absolutes, but...

There are never holes on a catch in the outfield in 2-man.

I prefer Grey Goose to Absolut

[RichMSN]

With two man you should be able to get all touches.

Many times coaches will appeal just as a last ditch effort to steal an out.

Bases loaded, long fly to left center. Who's got the the touch at first?

First base coach, that's who.

No that would be BU responsibility on any fly ball into the V.

From the Evans Maximizing Manual, in part, Chapter 11.02 page237:

.................The base umpire is responsible for the tag-ups at first and second and any subsequent plays on runners returning to first, second, and third after a catch. The base umpires is responsible for all missed base appeals on all runners at first and second and he is also responsible for all missed appeals on the BR at third base. If the ball is not caught he has all plays at first, second and third, including any play on the batter-runner. (Diagram 11.3)

It's not easy, but as RichMSN has pointed out in another thread about getting help and positioning, getting the position to at least catch as much as you can is what's important. Anybody that has been around the game for a while knows that the 2 man system has it's holes, they are well documented, but most of the time, getting to a good position trumps most things.

My HS season ended Tuesday, but I had a playoff game last week where we had a home run hook the pole. I was the base umpire and I couldn't possibly tell you if the BR touched first. We work 2-man in the first 3 rounds and you can bet the farm we had all four eyes on that baseball.

Lots of holes in 2-man. We had a push bunt down the line that ended up being a sacrifice where the runner went first to third. I can guarantee nobody saw R1 touch second. Won't apologize for it either - we're just one umpire short to get that.

[scrounge]

I hate to use absolutes, but...

There are never holes on a catch in the outfield in 2-man.

Of course there are....any trouble ball in the vee and the BU is going to be at the edge of the grass staring at that ball. Any runners on 2nd or 3rd and the PU is going to be watching the touches at 3B or home. Sorry, but the touch at 1B is simply the last priority on that list. If R2 is about to touch 3B at about the same time the B/R gets to 1B, no way I'm watching the 1B touch over the 3B touch.

[Replacematt]

I hate to use absolutes, but...

There are never holes on a catch in the outfield in 2-man.

Of course there are....any trouble ball in the vee and the BU is going to be at the edge of the grass staring at that ball. Any runners on 2nd or 3rd and the PU is going to be watching the touches at 3B or home. Sorry, but the touch at 1B is simply the last priority on that list. If R2 is about to touch 3B at about the same time the B/R gets to 1B, no way I'm watching the 1B touch over the 3B touch.

Remembering your umpiring principles will prevent this. Being 15 feet or so off the edge of the grass isn't going to affect your view of the catch much, if at all, but will open your view for the touch at 1B.

[scrounge]

I hate to use absolutes, but...

There are never holes on a catch in the outfield in 2-man.

Of course there are....any trouble ball in the vee and the BU is going to be at the edge of the grass staring at that ball. Any runners on 2nd or 3rd and the PU is going to be watching the touches at 3B or home. Sorry, but the touch at 1B is simply the last priority on that list. If R2 is about to touch 3B at about the same time the B/R gets to 1B, no way I'm watching the 1B touch over the 3B touch.

Remembering your umpiring principles will prevent this. Being 15 feet or so off the edge of the grass isn't going to affect your view of the catch much, if at all, but will open your view for the touch at 1B.

A good idea when you can...but there's times it just doesn't work. If LF and CF are converging on a trouble ball, there's no chance I'm going to see the touch at 1B or even try to until the catch/no catch ruling is over. There are holes - the mechanics manuals openly admit them. Both FED and the red book say the same overall principle - when given a choice between touch or ball, always choose the ball.