Pitcher taking sign off the rubber

[mstaylor]

My question anybody that would want to grap this ugly stick, how do you know when the catcher is showing signs? The BU does but you have no idea. Leave it alone, send the idiot coach to the dugout and do what really needs to be done.

[yawetag]

Doesn't a rule code somewhere state the pitcher has to "simulate" taking the sign? To me, that's all I'm looking for. Toe the rubber, look in (or, in general, a pause), then pitch.

[mstaylor]

The simulate is an instruction not a rule. Unfortunately this is a horribly written rule that has caused guys for years to try and balk it. It is as Andrew says, look for a pause or simulation of taking a sign, balk/ball a quick pitch accordingly.

[johnnyg08]

Guys, there's the black letter law of the rule...but the spirit of the rule is ONLY to prevent a quick pitch.

Don't create things that aren't there. If you're working lower levels, please stop perpetuating myths.

[Umpire in Chief]

Guys I think one of the important things to recognize from this thread is one of the things which helps distinguish a good umpire from a better one is that we not only need to know the rules, but we also need to have an understanding of the interpretation and the intent. But in the next breath we have to contend with other declared intentions like the balk story where the comment brings up "attempt to deceive the runner."

And that is exactly why we will never have umpiring robots as some have suggested as the future.

[grayhawk]

Taking signs off the rubber present a couple of possible problems:

1. As mentioned before, it makes it easier to quick pitch.

2. The second is that it prevents runners from getting a proper lead. Runners are taught to stay on the base until the pitcher engages. If he already has the sign when he does so, it is easy for him to deliver a pitch (without quick pitching) before a runner can take his lead.

Un umpire called a balk last summer on a pitcher on my son's team for taking signs off the rubber. This was in a USSSA tournament which is based on OBR. I informed him that it wasn't a balk, and he threatened to eject me.

When it happens and I am on the plate, I simply call time and tell him that he needs to take his signs while on the rubber. I have not had problems after letting them know.

[noumpere]

"6-1-1 The pitcher shown here is committing a violation by taking his signs from in front of the rubber. Pitchers are required to take their signs from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate".

So I guess NFHS really doesn't want there to be any discretion or judgment here.

The difference here is that the pitcher is simulating a portion of their pitching requirements (taking their signs) while off the rubber.

I dont see the difference because this is the situation I thought was being discussed but I agree this is the part that they want to enforce. It has nothing to do with quick pitching because theres already a rule for that it has to do with deceiving the base runners who stay on the base when the pitcher is off the rubber and then get a short lead when the pitcher is on the rubber and then a longer lead when the pitcher comes set.

[sdix00]

Taking signs off the rubber present a couple of possible problems:

. . .

When it happens and I am on the plate, I simply call time and tell him that he needs to take his signs while on the rubber. I have not had problems after letting them know.

Wendelstedt agrees.

6.2 Pitcher Restrictions

6.2.1 Restrictions with No Penalties

The pitcher may not take signs from the catcher without being in contact with the pitcher's plate

{8.01], may not disengage the pitcher's plate after every sign {8.01 Comment], may not engage

the pitcher's plate with his hands together, and may not disengage the pitcher's plate without

separating his hands. If any of these occur, the umpire should immediately call "time," and instruct the pitcher to correct his infraction.

[Rich Ives]

Ask him where it says the coach can't give signals.

The rule book doesn't say the coach can't give signals.

It does say, "He (the pitcher) shall take his sign from the catcher..."

Read the WHOLE sentence.

So he has to take signs from the catcher while on the rubber. So if he's getting a sign from the catcher he has to be on the rubber.

Now, where does it say he can't take a sign from the coach and from any position?

[detailshp]

Ok, this topic has been covered a bit, and I have read it thouroughly, but I want to know why it is NOT a balk with runners on base, for FED. I have the 2012 FED rulebook in front of me. I have read the first paragraph ( article 1 ) where it says "He shall take his signs from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitchers plate." Thats a complete sentence, with no ambiguity.

Now, skip down to the bold section after Article 3 where it says:

PENALTY

" ( art, 1, 2, 3 ): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded to the batter. If there is a runner, such an illegal act ( my emphasis ) is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball. "

So, unless I am not reading the rulebook correctly ( which is certainly possible ) an infraction in article one with runners on base is a balk. ALSO I might add, if your reading this as it is written, EVEN IF THERE ARE NO RUNNERS ON BASE, you are to award a ball to the batter for taking signs off the rubber.

Let the flames begin.

[semper_fi_72]

All I can say is that is one Big Ugly Dirty Stick that I am not even going to come close to touching. :fuel:

[mstaylor]

All I can say is that is one Big Ugly Dirty Stick that I am not even going to come close to touching.

And you won't find a single case play to support it.

[detailshp]

I dont need a case play to support a rule. However, in my local HS association, we go over this EVERY year. Pitchers do not take signs off the rubber. As it was stated before, this is to allow a runner a chance to understand when he can get a lead, guard against a quick pitch, and keep the pitcher from intending to decieve a runner. I've been in lots of games where we have called this rule, and no coach, AD, or association evaluator has ever said a word about us calling the balk.

I'm not saying that this is'nt a " don't pick that booger" situation, but it is certainly spelled out clearly in the rules, with an appropriate penatly clearly written.

[UmpJM]

detailshp,

If you read the rule carefully, you will see that it says what the pitcher SHALL do when he is engaged, but says nothing about what he SHALL NOT do when he is not engaged. If the rule said "He shall ONLY take his signs...", that would be different. But that's not what the rule says.

There is no rule against a pitcher taking a sign (from anyone) when he is "off the rubber" - it is an error to call it a balk when he does.

There IS a rule requiring him to (appear to) take a sign once he engages the rubber.

JM

[gobama84]

detailshp,

If you read the rule carefully, you will see that it says what the pitcher SHALL do when he is engaged, but says nothing about what he SHALL NOT do when he is not engaged. If the rule said "He shall ONLY take his signs...", that would be different. But that's not what the rule says.

There is no rule against a pitcher taking a sign (from anyone) when he is "off the rubber" - it is an error to call it a balk when he does.

There IS a rule requiring him to (appear to) take a sign once he engages the rubber.

JM

+1 Now let's have this die again like it did before. :smachhead:

[mstaylor]

By requiring the pitcher to take a sign from the catcher, or at least look like it, it prevents a quick pitch. It doesn't clearly say anything, as a matter of fact it is very unclear. A badly worded baseball rule is a shocker.

[mstaylor]

You have to understand that the pitching restrictions used to start when the pitcher took his sign. Some don't take signs or are hard to tell when is actually does. So, FED changed the rule to make the pitching restrictions start when he intentionally engages the rubber. In the shift of rules they wrote it badly but since most know not to call it a balk, it isn't a problem so it doesn't get fixed.

[Fittske24]

If you have a pitcher that continues to look into the catcher for signs while off the rubber, just call time and tell him to toe the rubber when taking signs. Don’t be so quick to want to call a balk when you “think†the pitcher is taking signs off the rubber. If you just can’t tell guess what….the problem will actually fix itself. It will either result in the pitcher engaging the rubber properly, or eventually balking.

If the pitcher IS off the rubber and appears as if he is receiving signs, he has two options, (1) engage the rubber with one hand on his side which would require him to come set properly before delivering a pitch, if not, this could be judged as a quick pitch which equals balk, or (2) after taking said signs while off the rubber, as soon as he makes any motion associated with his pitch (i.e. coming set while still off the rubber), this is a balk for simulating a pitch.

Baseball has a unique way of correcting its own ill's when you have a rule that is not quite clear.

[detailshp]

You have to understand that the pitching restrictions used to start when the pitcher took his sign. Some don't take signs or are hard to tell when is actually does. So, FED changed the rule to make the pitching restrictions start when he intentionally engages the rubber. In the shift of rules they wrote it badly but since most know not to call it a balk, it isn't a problem so it doesn't get fixed.

I remember when the pitching restrictions started at the taking of the sign. And, I disagree with the concept that " since most know not to call it a balk." in its entireity.

Again, what part of the rule is ambiguous? A pitcher can certainly decide NOT to take a sign, but if he does take a sign, it certainly states how he should do it. And, it also states what the penalty is if he doesnt. I think the wording is fine. And, I think that if you have a kid trying to cicrumvent the rule, you can certainly call time and give a warning and not enforce the rule. That of course opens up a whole separate can of worms, and we can certainly get into lengthy discussions ( and we have ) about when its prudent to enforce a rule, and when its not.

The point I am driving home is that to blanket say that there is no penalty for taking signs off the rubber is false. There is a penalty. It clear what the penalty is.

[kylejt]

With the book vs. by the book, fellas.

If a pitcher is walking up the hill, and the catcher taps this fingers in his shinguards for pickoff of first, are you going to say that's a sign, and not call the out? Of course you're not.

[UmpJM]

detailshp,

The point I am driving home is that to blanket say that there is no penalty for taking signs off the rubber is false. There is a penalty. It clear what the penalty is.

At the risk of repeating myself, there is absolutely no penalty for a pitcher taking a sign while he is off the rubber - there is no rule against doing so.

There is a rule that requires a pitcher to (appear to) take a sign once he engages the rubber.- and if he fails to do so, I would have no problem enforcing the penalty.

The point that you are "driving home" is entirely mistaken and reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the rule and its purpose.

JM

[detailshp]

Jm;

Sorry. Not buying it. The rule doesn't say "appears to." It clearly spells out when he is to take a sign if he takes one. And it spells out what the penalty is if he doesn't.

If your fundamental understanding cannot read a simple sentence and take it as its written, nothing I can do to change it.

[yawetag]

If your fundamental understanding cannot read a simple sentence and take it as its written, nothing I can do to change it.

It's safe to say you are in the minority.

[Jimurray]

Let's start with two scenarios. A. Pitcher stands straight up astride the rubber and looks at catcher while he gives defensive signals or maybe doesn't look at catcher because he's looking at his fielders while the catcher is giving the defensive signals. While the catcher is giving signals while the pitcher's not on the rubber this should not be considered a violation in FED or OBR. The pitcher is not getting HIS sign from the catcher. As long as the pitcher takes the rubber and does not quick pitch I have nothing.

B. Pitcher straddles the rubber and leans over and looks in at the catcher. The catcher does or doesn't give signals. The pitcher then shuffles on to the rubber and gets his signal. I don't have a balk unless the pitcher does some kind of move such as standing up which looks like coming set. But, I now have to monitor the pitcher more closely while he is astride the rubber. While most well coached teams will know the F1 is not on the rubber and this bush deke will not work it still should be be punished if the pitcher does anything other than shuffle to the rubber. 

[mtnump]

We were told tonight in our Association meeting that if the pitcher is taking signs from the catcher while off of the rubber we are to balk it per 6.1, which I think is worded pretty clearly. The pitcher shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate.

As I always like a lively discussion, I tried to argue the picking boogers theory and was soundly rebuffed.