Hit by pitch in dirt

[noumpere]

:Horse:

My question to you is, why are you offering up such information?

Your only answer in this situation needs to be:

"BECAUSE THE PITCH HIT HIM."

You don't HAVE to get into a heated discussion about an obvious judgment call like this, unless of course, that's your goal.

If so, you go right on being an obtuse redass, and see where that approach gets you.

Agreed. If the pitch bounces, the batter gets first all the time.

(okay -- all the time except that one play in 8U where the pitch comes rolling in like they were playing kick ball and the batter doesn't move.)

[kwiggie]

:Horse::

Cute!

:You don't HAVE to get into a heated discussion about an obvious judgment call like this, unless of course, that's your goal.:

Isn't that the goal here? Besides were is the judgement? The op states that there was "no attempt to evade" that isn't judgement that is fact... "IF" we hold the op as fact... and what else is there to go on?

:If so, you go right on being an obtuse redass,:

Now that is a red-ass!!!

[kcfan102]

OK I will bite,

Scenario 1: b1 is up and gets struck by a one hopper in the dirt thrown completely into the batters box, sticks him on the lower leg. He stands absolutly still (like a little baby Fawn, another deer reference for Brian) the whole time as the ball bounces in. For the sake of argument we could say that this was in fact his chosen act of "avoiding" this spiked pitch. I can imagine the following conversation going somthing like this as b1 just became r1 on the awarded hbp.

DC: "Hey Blue, you can't give him that he didn't even move"

PU: "Coach, he tried to avoid the ball by standing still"

DC: "I know it hit him because he was standing still!"

PU: "Right, that is why he is getting 1st"

DC:

What is probably going to follow is a heated discussion at home plate about the "Common Sense" that is being applied to the "must not permit a pitch to touch him" rule. (fed 7-3-4)

My conversation will go:

DC: "Hey Blue, you can't give him that he didn't even move"

PU: "Sure he did"

Done.

[kwiggie]

"Hey Blue, you can't give him that he didn't even move"

PU: "Sure he did"

Nice, sounds like the old "Jedi mind trick!" either way didn't mean to call you out KC just wanted to run with your casepoint.

Edited April 6, 2010 by kwiggie

[NWA_UMP]

Had a coach ask me about a ball hitting a player that bounced in the dirt first...he said it was dead, just like in OP. I asked him...if the ball is dead when it hits the ground why does your catcher bust his butt to get to it when it doesn't hit the batter and rolls to the screen? He turned and headed for the dugout....

[mstaylor]

Had a coach ask me about a ball hitting a player that bounced in the dirt first...he said it was dead, just like in OP. I asked him...if the ball is dead when it hits the ground why does your catcher bust his butt to get to it when it doesn't hit the batter and rolls to the screen? He turned and headed for the dugout....

Of course, that is the sometimes automatic dead ball. Everybody knows how to call that. :eek:

[BrianC14]

Had a coach ask me about a ball hitting a player that bounced in the dirt first...he said it was dead, just like in OP. I asked him...if the ball is dead when it hits the ground why does your catcher bust his butt to get to it when it doesn't hit the batter and rolls to the screen? He turned and headed for the dugout....

Beautiful. :rollinglaugh:

[kcfan102]

"Hey Blue, you can't give him that he didn't even move"

PU: "Sure he did"

Nice, sounds like the old "Jedi mind trick!" either way didn't mean to call you out KC just wanted to run with your casepoint.

Your a little!

just playing. Don't worry about it. We're all friends here.

[HokieUmp]

If I may:

OK I will bite,

Scenario 1: b1 is up and gets struck by a one hopper in the dirt thrown completely into the batters box, sticks him on the lower leg. He stands absolutly still (like a little baby Fawn, another deer reference for Brian) the whole time as the ball bounces in. For the sake of argument we could say that this was in fact his chosen act of "avoiding" this spiked pitch.

Had this today in a HS game. Let me say that I was the base guy this time, but the plate man is a long-time veteran, and one of our evaluators. Here's the transcript:

[Pitch. Bounce in the dirt. Doink, off the batter's leg.]

PU: "Time!"

[batter goes to first.]

[Play resumes.]

That's it. Not a word was uttered by the DC, never mind any heated discussion at home plate.

And this is JUST like your scenario - ball bounced once well in front of the batter, and the batter didn't make a huge effort to move, if any. And he got first. The expected call was made, and we all moved on.

[JaxRolo]

If I may:

Had this today in a HS game. Let me say that I was the base guy this time, but the plate man is a long-time veteran, and one of our evaluators. Here's the transcript:

[Pitch. Bounce in the dirt. Doink, off the batter's leg.]

PU: "Time!"

[batter goes to first.]

[Play resumes.]

That's it. Not a word was uttered by the DC, never mind any heated discussion at home plate.

And this is JUST like your scenario - ball bounced once well in front of the batter, and the batter didn't make a huge effort to move, if any. And he got first. The expected call was made, and we all moved on.

As it should be!!!

Why complicate things saying the batter didn't move. Asking for trouble! :clap:

[kwiggie]

Had this today in a HS game. Let me say that I was the base guy this time, but the plate man is a long-time veteran, and one of our evaluators. Here's the transcript:[Pitch. Bounce in the dirt. Doink, off the batter's leg.]

PU: "Time!"

[batter goes to first.]

[Play resumes.]

That's it. Not a word was uttered by the DC, never mind any heated discussion at home plate.And this is JUST like your scenario - ball bounced once well in front of the batter, and the batter didn't make a huge effort to move, if any. And he got first. The expected call was made, and we all moved on.

I will say this, I am rethinking my take on the situation due to the input (even Brian's not so "user friendly" posts) and am going to do some studying on this. I still can't wrap my head around the whole "a pitch is a pitch unless it hits the dirt prior to striking a batter" ,which I am still unable to find in any of my rule bookscase books etc. I do see what you are saying Hokie and others, that this is a by default a hbp situation. I will not completely relenquish the fact that this is treading close to the saying "What other rules do you not want me to enforce today Coach?" I heard that here and loved it.

My biggest concern is this: A well versed coach (I will see a couple this HS season) could in fact call the PU out for allowing the situation discribed prior and site the fact "He didn't attempt to avoid, etc,etc." Are we using a double standard to the hbp rule and how it applies to a bouncing ball? Is this an auto hbp? Why isn't in any of the books? Throw us a bone fed, obr, ncaa, etc.!

I digress, my head hurts ! bring on the icons!

[BrianC14]

I will say this, I am rethinking my take on the situation due to the input (even Brian's not so "user friendly" posts) and am going to do some studying on this. I still can't wrap my head around the whole "a pitch is a pitch unless it hits the dirt prior to striking a batter" ,which I am still unable to find in any of my rule bookscase books etc. I do see what you are saying Hokie and others, that this is a by default a hbp situation. I will not completely relenquish the fact that this is treading close to the saying "What other rules do you not want me to enforce today Coach?" I heard that here and loved it.

My biggest concern is this: A well versed coach (I will see a couple this HS season) could in fact call the PU out for allowing the situation discribed prior and site the fact "He didn't attempt to avoid, etc,etc." Are we using a double standard to the hbp rule and how it applies to a bouncing ball? Is this an auto hbp? Why isn't in any of the books? Throw us a bone fed, obr, ncaa, etc.!

I digress, my head hurts ! bring on the icons!

If it ever happens in a game, please let us know.

So you don't like being needled on a FORUM? What are you going to do when a coach really does try to jam it where the sun doesn't shine?

Better here than out there, my friend.

:D

[yawetag]

And this is JUST like your scenario - ball bounced once well in front of the batter, and the batter didn't make a huge effort to move, if any. And he got first.

Which was it? A small effort or none? Any effort is enough for me.

[Umpire in Chief]

I don't think there is an official interpretation on this. It is more like other unwritten rules of umpiring.

--In the dirt and hits him the batter gets 1st.

--Catcher stands for a pitch, even if a cock shot, it is a ball

--Umpire gets hit by a pitch, it's a ball*** story to follow

--Catcher catches one underhanded, almost always a ball

--Pitch which goes to the backstop is always a ball

I'm sure others will add more of the unwritten rules of umpiring.

[Umpire in Chief]

Story from above--

An umpire I love to work with a former NCAA D-I guy many years ago was working a game at Wake Forest. Fastball comes in and is uncaught. Hits my friend in the hand and actually breaks his hand. He stays in the game. The WF coach comes up to him and says, "By the way what was that pitch?" My friend replies, "Ball." Coach starts with the Oh come on that pitch looked perfect spiel. My friend tells the coach, "I'd love to hear you explain how I get hit on a f:censored:ing pitch that you think was a f:censored:ing strike." The coach just walked away.

[JaxRolo]

--Pitch which goes to the backstop is always a ball

I would generally agree BUT after my last 10U game it seemed like even a pitch down the middle seemed to get to the backstop!!! :rollinglaugh:

[kcfan102]

I don't think there is an official interpretation on this. It is more like other unwritten rules of umpiring.

--In the dirt and hits him the batter gets 1st.

--Catcher stands for a pitch, even if a cock shot, it is a ball

--Umpire gets hit by a pitch, it's a ball*** story to follow

--Catcher catches one underhanded, almost always a ball

--Pitch which goes to the backstop is always a ball

I'm sure others will add more of the unwritten rules of umpiring.

If he slides into first he's out, even if the first baseman drops it while coming off the bag.

:rollinglaugh:

[BrianC14]

If he slides into first he's out, even if the first baseman drops it while coming off the bag.

You only get two invisible men on base. :rollinglaugh:

[kwiggie]

If it ever happens in a game, please let us know.

I will come Running, Pointing, and Shouting, To be followed by 30 minutes of "Uncomfortable Man Weeping"... sombody hold me

So you don't like being needled on a FORUM?:

Are you kidding, this is my stress release everynight after work. The "user friendly" comment was an adjustment to mstaylor's ealier post. The deer references were all my own however:nod: Since I missed out on "post of the month" I thought that I might impress uic enough to pick up a "Most Wildlife References of the Month" award with two of them IN ONE THREAD! might I add... "Come on throw a brother a bone!"

What are you going to do when a coach really does try to jam it where the sun doesn't shine?Better here than out there, my friend.?:

I completely agree! another reason I log in every night this time of year.

[Big Red]

As we say down South: If you ain't picked on, you aint' loved!!!

So that means Brian loves everybody, especially rat coaches!! B)

[Paperipper17]

I don't think there is an official interpretation on this. It is more like other unwritten rules of umpiring.

--In the dirt and hits him the batter gets 1st.

--Catcher stands for a pitch, even if a cock shot, it is a ball

--Umpire gets hit by a pitch, it's a ball*** story to follow

--Catcher catches one underhanded, almost always a ball

--Pitch which goes to the backstop is always a ball

I'm sure others will add more of the unwritten rules of umpiring.

Borderline 3-0 pitch and the batter flings the bat towards the dugout and starts to sprint down to first as soon as it hits the mitt...That's a STRIKE! Don't tell anyone but...sometimes I think it's funny as hell watching Mr. Stud Shortstop have to turn around, go back for his bat...maybe I'm just a bad person B)

[HokieUmp]

Which was it? A small effort or none? Any effort is enough for me.

He may have blinked. That's still enough.

And I'm okay with that; I posted my tale to show kwiggie that his scenario - where a ball bounced in the dirt, hitting a batter that, for all intents, didn't move. He got his base. No one said boo about it, because we all knew it was the right and expected call.

Once that ball is in the box or hitting the ground, the defense has lost all rights to b1tch and moan. You don't want him getting to first? Throw the ball farther than 58 feet.

(I can't remember if it's been mentioned in the thread, but let's not forget the intent of this "new emphasis" has been less on getting batters to "make an effort to avoid" than it's been to keep batters from a) planting their bodies in the strike zone to draw a call, or leaning a body part into a pitch.)

[TomEllis]

What I am trying to say is that how can b1 be allowed too

1. hit a single off a pitch one hopping off the dirt

2. hit a double off a pitch one hopping off the dirt

3. hit a hr off a pitch one hopping off the dirt (I have never seen it, but whatever)

4. etc, etc.

And not be held to the fact that he MUST make an attempt to try and avoid a pitch one hopping off the dirt?

It is still the same live ball in all these situations... I agree completely with the fact that a bounding ball is unpredictable, but b1 still has to make an attempt to "evade" it. If he chooses right he is un-touched, if he chooses wrong and gets tagged he is getting 1st base on the hbp, at least he made the attempt to avoid a live ballpitch.

Redass... this must be a regional thing, I like it!

I am late to the party, but here is my take on this discussion.

The batters attempt to avoid the ball is that he did NOT swing at the ball.

He gets first for the HBP.

Tom

[Don]

I think the definition of redass is an umpire with an unwavering point of view that is not influenced by facts before him, that could be to the contrary of his redass point of view, and said umpire is in fact derogatory to any who oppose the point of view.

[mstaylor]

I used to work with a guy that was a self proclaimed rule expert that wasn't. He would pull rules out that didn't need to be and made up rules to suit his style. He said on many occasions that he hated baseball but loved to umpire. He liked being out there being a jerk whenever possible.