Hit by pitch in dirt

[IHSAUmp08]

Hey everybody, I'm a 3rd yr. HS ump. I had a situation a few days ago where the batter was in his batters box, awaiting the pitch, which bouced off the dirt in front of the plate and hit the batter. He never made an effort to get out of the way so I told him to stay put. I felt a little helpless becasue I'm not sure of the correct call. Both skippers came out to argue they were correct. I've been combing through the NFHS rules book but couldn't find anything specific to balls in the dirt that hit the batter. Thanks for your help.

[calablue]

I"ve never read FED rules, but every other set of rules I have read states that if he is hit by a pitched ball he is awarded first base. I have yet to find an exclusion for when the ball hits the ground first. However, if in your opinion he made no effort to avoid being hit by the pitch than you were right in calling it a ball (I am assuming you did call it a ball) and keeping him at bat. I've had this happen a few times, and had players and/or coaches try to argue that the ball is dead when it hits the ground in front of the plate .

Edited April 3, 2010 by calablue

[IHSAUmp08]

Calablue, thanks. That's exactly what happend. Naturally the coach of the defensive team claimed that the ball is dead once it hits the dirt. It was either on a 0-1 count or 1-1 so it being called a ball didn't mean much. The problem was with the coach claiming it was dead. For the first time in a long time, I didn't really know what to do. That's why I stuck with the "he made no effort to get outta the way" excuse. Guess we're just wrong sometimes. This is a great forum. I'm now more informed.

[calablue]

I like to ask the DC if he'd still like that to be a dead ball if the batter hit it and they turned a double play on it. Of course if that was to happen then you have the OC all over your butt. In that case I ask the OC if he'd still like it to be a dead ball if by chance his batter hits the ball into a hole somewhere and brings in a couple runs.: It usually shuts them up.

[Paperipper17]

calablue's got it right. Rat coaches don't know the rules. If they yell something at you that doesn't sound right, that's usually because it isn't. You'd be surprised at the things they either think are true or try to put over on you. :banghead:

[JaxRolo]

I like to ask the DC if he'd still like that to be a dead ball if the batter hit it and they turned a double play on it. Of course if that was to happen then you have the OC all over your butt. In that case I ask the OC if he'd still like it to be a dead ball if by chance his batter hits the ball into a hole somewhere and brings in a couple runs.: It usually shuts them up.

Correct it is not a dead ball. I tend to always award first base. Specially if it hits the ground first. You never know which way the ball is going to bounce so maybe he didnt know it was gong to hit him.

[kcfan102]

What if the batter hits a home run on a bounce? Do you count it?

Absolutely.

Give 'em first.

[BrianC14]

Calablue, thanks. That's exactly what happend. Naturally the coach of the defensive team claimed that the ball is dead once it hits the dirt. It was either on a 0-1 count or 1-1 so it being called a ball didn't mean much. The problem was with the coach claiming it was dead. For the first time in a long time, I didn't really know what to do. That's why I stuck with the "he made no effort to get outta the way" excuse. Guess we're just wrong sometimes. This is a great forum. I'm now more informed.

Wow.

WOW.

A high school coach said this?

Makes me wonder what's in the water in Des Plaines.

BTW, as you've seen, if a batter is HBP on a bouncer, yes, he gets first base.

Don't ever hold a batter there if he's hit by a pitch on a bouncer.

[mstaylor]

I am more strict than most on HBP sitches and I would absolutely let him go, the batter has no idea which way it is going.

In a HS game if a coach try selling the ball is dead on the bounce, I would tell him incorrect and send him on his way. I am not even getting into a discussion on that.

[yawetag]

The problem was with the coach claiming it was dead.

The ball wasn't dead when it hit the ground. However, it became dead when it hit the batter.

[Stan W.]

I am more strict than most on HBP sitches and I would absolutely let him go, the batter has no idea which way it is going.

In a HS game if a coach try selling the ball is dead on the bounce, I would tell him incorrect and send him on his way. I am not even getting into a discussion on that.

and I am more known to be a bit more liberal with HBP (inside joke with MST).....I agree with MST..........100%

Hard to believe this came up in a HS game..........but ive learned over the years to never underestimate the lack of knowledge that is NOW acceptable in HS ball.....

[JaxRolo]

The only time I have ever disallowed a HBP is when a batter leaned over the strike zone and the ball hit him. STRIKE!

The OC could not believe I called it a strike.

[Big Red]

I do LL fast-pitch and stuff like this comes up all the time, especially when you work the 10 and under games. You'd be amazed at how many times in one game you'll deal with a dropped third strike situation where batter has 2 strikes, the pitch is low and hits the dirt on the way to the plate, batter swings and misses, then F2 boots it.

Had a home run out of one the other day....catcher finally gets it as BR is already at first, throws over F1's head into the outfield, F9 mis-throws to F5 and BR makes it home!!!

I know several have made the comment before, but working those younger kid's games really keeps you on your toes as you see everything under the sun since most of the players (and coaches) don't know better and are still on a steep learning curve.

Similar to what Jax just mentioned, I was working a 11-12 yr old baseball game a few years back...F1 for VT could throw some heat, but did so with a sweeping arm motion that brought the ball from in to out on a RH batter. One poor kid came up and was literally shaking he was so scared. First pitch and he jumps right smack into the middle of the strike zone on a pitch right down the middle....BAM, gets 'em in the side. AC at 1st yells, "Shake it off and come see me!" as I'm yelling time and start the explanation about the batter getting hit by a strike in the zone. AC pleads that the batter was trying to get outta the way of the pitch! Nice try, and if you believe that, I've got some ocean front property in AZ!

[Umpire in Chief]

If in your judgement he made no effort to move or was just sitting there waiting to be hit keep him there, but I'm going to give every benefit of the doubt to the batter.

The ball hitting the dirt makes no difference as has been said it is still live. If the batter were to swing and miss it is still a strike, of it is still a hit if he hits it.

Remember the ball is still a pitched ball until it is caught, comes to a rest or is hit.

[kwiggie]

If in your judgement he made no effort to move or was just sitting there waiting to be hit keep him there, .

Yep, I might be in the minority (as usual). In the dirt or on the fly the batter is staying put if no attempt is made to evade a wild pitch. You can't tell me that a pitch that is spiked in the dirt in front of the batter isn't wild and can't be picked up by even a novice batter. You coined it with the nfhs rule about "attempt to evade" a pitch. I am sure this may be on of those htbt sit however.

[BrianC14]

Yep, I might be in the minority (as usual). In the dirt or on the fly the batter is staying put if no attempt is made to evade a wild pitch. You can't tell me that a pitch that is spiked in the dirt in front of the batter isn't wild and can't be picked up by even a novice batter. You coined it with the nfhs rule about "attempt to evade" a pitch. I am sure this may be on of those htbt sit however.

Well, I'm going to say it.... I'd classify you as a REDASS if you're being that strict with a wild pitch that hits a batter, and you're going to keep the batter there?

What you're doing here is rewarding a pitcher for a dogSH*# pitch, and penalizing a batter who may have frozen on it. A pitch in the dirt?!? Who knows where it's going? :HS

Edited April 4, 2010 by BrianC14

[JaxRolo]

Well, I'm going to say it.... I'd classify you as a REDASS if you're being that strict with a wild pitch that hits a batter, and you're going to keep the batter there?

What you're doing here is rewarding a pitcher for a dogSH*# pitch, and penalizing a batter who may have frozen on it. A pitch in the dirt?!? Who knows where it's going?

+1

I have to agree with Brian!

[kwiggie]

He never made an effort to get out of the way so I told him to stay put.

You are going to tell me that a ball that is spiked 2' in front of you is somthing that you would freeze on? Of course there is no way of telling what way the ball will bounce but do you as a batter just stand there, like a deer in headlights... is that "making an attempt to evade? Nothing good comes from this delivery as a batter, you can't wait on it and hope it falls into the zone, it isn't going to turn into a fat hanging breaking ball, it is a spiked pitch that is coming at your feet. Watching a pitch that is being thrown 2' short (and I am guessing about distance) at your feet, into your batters box is nothing to freeze about. Make a move, any move, and 1st base is yours, otherwise you are taking one for the team.

On another note... What is a Redass? (and don't say me... I got that already)

[IHSAUmp08]

Wow.

WOW.

A high school coach said this?

Makes me wonder what's in the water in Des Plaines.

BTW, as you've seen, if a batter is HBP on a bouncer, yes, he gets first base.

Don't ever hold a batter there if he's hit by a pitch on a bouncer.

Actually the game was in a southwest suburb of Chicago. Won't name the schools cause it wouldn't be fair (especially for any Chicagoland observer). Aside from that, the same coach told me I should've warned his pitcher (righ-hander), rather than call a balk with a runner on 3rd. He did not come to a dicernable stop. Just took the ball in the set position and went straight into the pitch. Looked like he was a little rattled after letting in a run. I asked the coach, "Is there a new rule that we give a warning for balks in Freshmen ball"? He didn't say a word after that. Freshmen ball = Freshmen Coach

[BrianC14]

You are going to tell me that a ball that is spiked 2' in front of you is somthing that you would freeze on? Of course there is no way of telling what way the ball will bounce but do you as a batter just stand there, like a deer in headlights... is that "making an attempt to evade? Nothing good comes from this delivery as a batter, you can't wait on it and hope it falls into the zone, it isn't going to turn into a fat hanging breaking ball, it is a spiked pitch that is coming at your feet. Watching a pitch that is being thrown 2' short (and I am guessing about distance) at your feet, into your batters box is nothing to freeze about. Make a move, any move, and 1st base is yours, otherwise you are taking one for the team.

On another note... What is a Redass? (and don't say me... I got that already)

A pitch in the dirt... there ARE no "headlights" - - God only knows where that thing is going to go....the catcher doesn't know... you as the umpire sure as hell don't know, and you're imposing on a batter that he's supposed to avoid it, somehow?

Please tell me you're having an extended April Fool's Day joke here.

One example of a redass is an umpire who doesn't allow common sense to come into play - a hardass.

There are lots of other examples, but telling a batter who's HBP on a pitch in the dirt is an excellent example of a redass.

:beerbang

[kwiggie]

What I am trying to say is that how can b1 be allowed too

1. hit a single off a pitch one hopping off the dirt

2. hit a double off a pitch one hopping off the dirt

3. hit a hr off a pitch one hopping off the dirt (I have never seen it, but whatever)

4. etc, etc.

And not be held to the fact that he MUST make an attempt to try and avoid a pitch one hopping off the dirt?

It is still the same live ball in all these situations... I agree completely with the fact that a bounding ball is unpredictable, but b1 still has to make an attempt to "evade" it. If he chooses right he is un-touched, if he chooses wrong and gets tagged he is getting 1st base on the hbp, at least he made the attempt to avoid a live ballpitch.

Redass... this must be a regional thing, I like it!

[kcfan102]

What if not moving at all is an attempt to evade?

Now if it's a fastball that has the batter's back written all over it and he doesn't flinch, that's one thing...

But if a ball is in the dirt, that's another. All bets are off and it's anyone's guess as to where the ball is going to end up. I understand what you're saying kwiggie, if that batter can, in theory, knock it out of the park, than he should be bound by the rules of any normal pitch because, after all, it is still a pitch.

But...

I will never, ever, keep a hit batter in the box because the ball hit him on a bounce. If he doesn't have a good idea where the ball is going to end up, how can you expect him evade? Pitched balls can only break a few feet, but a ball in the dirt can hit a clump or a rock and dart in a completely new direction.

The batter may be attempting to evade because, maybe in his mind, he has a better chance of getting hit if he moves?

That's my way of rationalizing it. I'm very very picky about when I keep batter's in the batters box. Get the ball of the plate kid.

[mstaylor]

I agree with Brian,in his usual user friendly way, when he says that keeping a guy on a bounced pitch to beinng an OOO. I can see that it may be possible but it would have to be a very unusal set of circumstances which I haven't seen yet. I strongly suggest that you revisit this.

[kwiggie]

What if not moving at all is an attempt to evade?

OK I will bite,

Scenario 1: b1 is up and gets struck by a one hopper in the dirt thrown completely into the batters box, sticks him on the lower leg. He stands absolutly still (like a little baby Fawn, another deer reference for Brian) the whole time as the ball bounces in. For the sake of argument we could say that this was in fact his chosen act of "avoiding" this spiked pitch. I can imagine the following conversation going somthing like this as b1 just became r1 on the awarded hbp.

DC: "Hey Blue, you can't give him that he didn't even move"

PU: "Coach, he tried to avoid the ball by standing still"

DC: "I know it hit him because he was standing still!"

PU: "Right, that is why he is getting 1st"

DC:

What is probably going to follow is a heated discussion at home plate about the "Common Sense" that is being applied to the "must not permit a pitch to touch him" rule. (fed 7-3-4)

[BrianC14]

OK I will bite,

Scenario 1: b1 is up and gets struck by a one hopper in the dirt thrown completely into the batters box, sticks him on the lower leg. He stands absolutly still (like a little baby Fawn, another deer reference for Brian) the whole time as the ball bounces in. For the sake of argument we could say that this was in fact his chosen act of "avoiding" this spiked pitch. I can imagine the following conversation going somthing like this as b1 just became r1 on the awarded hbp.

DC: "Hey Blue, you can't give him that he didn't even move"

PU: "Coach, he tried to avoid the ball by standing still"

DC: "I know it hit him because he was standing still!"

PU: "Right, that is why he is getting 1st"

DC:

What is probably going to follow is a heated discussion at home plate about the "Common Sense" that is being applied to the "must not permit a pitch to touch him" rule. (fed 7-3-4)

:Horse:

My question to you is, why are you offering up such information?

Your only answer in this situation needs to be:

"BECAUSE THE PITCH HIT HIM."

You don't HAVE to get into a heated discussion about an obvious judgment call like this, unless of course, that's your goal.

If so, you go right on being an obtuse redass, and see where that approach gets you.

:notworthy: