D3K ruling

[HumblePie]

R1, R2, no outs. 2-2 count.

Pitcher inexplicably assumes the wind-up position, and both runners take off.

At the moment the pitcher makes his first move toward the plate, R1 is already standing on second base, but R2 has not yet reached third base.

Pitch is a curveball in the dirt, batter swings and misses.

Batter-runner takes off for 1st and is called safe by U1.

Plate umpire calls the batter-runner out, because since R2 had not yet acquired 3rd at the pitcher's first movement to the plate, R1 could not legally acquire 2nd. Therefore, for the purpose of the rule, 1B was still occupied.

Edited November 20 by HumblePie

[Coach Carl]

I believe that R1 has legally acquired 2B. He can only lose title to the base if R2 retreats and they both occupy the base at the same time. 

5.06 Running the Bases

(a) Occupying the Base

(1)  A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out.  He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

In the OP, R1 has touched it before he is out and has not been forced to vacate it for another runner who is legally entitled to it.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Time Of Pitch is defined as when F1 starts their delivery. Runners advancing would have to acquire the next base prior to TOP in order to remain there following a D3K. As described, the batter is out and the runners are returned to their bases at TOP. We now have 1 out with R1, R2 and the next batter is up.

~Dawg

 

[jimurrayalterego]

35 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Time Of Pitch is defined as when F1 starts their delivery. Runners advancing would have to acquire the next base prior to TOP in order to remain there following a D3K. As described, the batter is out and the runners are returned to their bases at TOP. We now have 1 out with R1, R2 and the next batter is up.

~Dawg

 

I agree with @Coach Carl. A D3K is not a dead ball/foul and runners don't have to return. R1 became R2 prior to TOP so 1B was unoccupied.

[grayhawk]

I'll take, "Thank God this will never happen in a game I'm working!" for $500.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Coach Carl said:

I believe that R1 has legally acquired 2B. He can only lose title to the base if R2 retreats and they both occupy the base at the same time. 

Let me ask you this question: same play, F1 steps off without balking, R2 retreats to 2B. Both R2 and R1 are standing on 2B when both are tagged. Who's out?

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, HumblePie said:

You did not just say that ...

Yeah, I did just say that. I made a mistake. I'm sure you'll get over it, Pie...

~Dawg

[HumblePie]

57 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I'll take, "Thank God this will never happen in a game I'm working!" for $500.

That's what I would have said until November 2nd, 2024.

[grayhawk]

15 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

That's what I would have said until November 2nd, 2024.

What level?

[HumblePie]

18 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

What level?

14u

[grayhawk]

7 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

14u

Sounds about right. He's not dim. He's just inexperienced...

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, Coach Carl said:

I believe that R1 has legally acquired 2B. He can only lose title to the base if R2 retreats and they both occupy the base at the same time. 

5.06 Running the Bases

(a) Occupying the Base

(1)  A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out.  He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

In the OP, R1 has touched it before he is out and has not been forced to vacate it for another runner who is legally entitled to it.

 

The key word is "unoccupied." Per Wendlestedt 8.2.3, a runner can only acquire a base if a preceding runner is not entitled to it (which R2 is until they reach 3B.) Therefore, R1 did not legally acquire 2B, and the batter cannot advance on an uncaught third strike.

8.2.3 also addresses the obverse, in which a runner cannot retreat if they legally acquire a base before TOP. We would all agree (I hope) that if R2 returned to 2B before touching 3B, we would not call R1 out for returning to 1B.

Thus, R1 is R1, and not R2 at TOP. 

[Coach Carl]

4 hours ago, Velho said:

Let me ask you this question: same play, F1 steps off without balking, R2 retreats to 2B. Both R2 and R1 are standing on 2B when both are tagged. Who's out?

R1.  When R2 and R1 occupy the base at the same time, R1 loses title.  Though, based on Wendlestedt 8.2.3 cited later, he appears not to have been entitled to the base until R2 has acquired 3rd.   

[Coach Carl]

2 hours ago, Replacematt said:

The key word is "unoccupied." Per Wendlestedt 8.2.3, a runner can only acquire a base if a preceding runner is not entitled to it (which R2 is until they reach 3B.) Therefore, R1 did not legally acquire 2B, and the batter cannot advance on an uncaught third strike.

8.2.3 also addresses the obverse, in which a runner cannot retreat if they legally acquire a base before TOP. We would all agree (I hope) that if R2 returned to 2B before touching 3B, we would not call R1 out for returning to 1B.

Thus, R1 is R1, and not R2 at TOP. 

I don't have a Wendlestedt manual but I am confused by some of the terms.  Is "acquire" interchangeable with "entitled"?  As I read your post, I deduce that a runner cannot acquire a base until a preceding runner is not entitled to it.    That would make for the possibilty of odd sitches.  For example:  R1 and R2.  Double steal.  Catcher throws down to 2B.  R2 stumbles and has not reached 3rd when F6 tags R1 after he has touched 2B (i.e. he is safe).  Except, is he not safe?  The definition of "SAFE" would seem to say that you couldn't declare him safe because he isn't entitled to the base until R2 reaches 3B.    

DEFINITIONS OF TERMS

“SAFE” is a declaration by the umpire that a runner is entitled to the base for which he was trying.

[Replacematt]

59 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

I don't have a Wendlestedt manual but I am confused by some of the terms.  Is "acquire" interchangeable with "entitled"?  As I read your post, I deduce that a runner cannot acquire a base until a preceding runner is not entitled to it.    That would make for the possibilty of odd sitches.  For example:  R1 and R2.  Double steal.  Catcher throws down to 2B.  R2 stumbles and has not reached 3rd when F6 tags R1 after he has touched 2B (i.e. he is safe).  Except, is he not safe?  The definition of "SAFE" would seem to say that you couldn't declare him safe because he isn't entitled to the base until R2 reaches 3B.    

DEFINITIONS OF TERMS

“SAFE” is a declaration by the umpire that a runner is entitled to the base for which he was trying.

A runner cannot acquire a base until a preceding runner no longer has title to it, yes (and that is almost verbatim from the section to which I referred earlier.) 

This is a case where words are used loosely in the rules and require interpretation, as you have discovered. In your situation, the runner is not out, but also not completely safe, as the return of R2 to that base would render them liable to be put out once again.  So, they're "safe temporarily" (or maybe, "Mitch altogether,") but there's no such ruling on the field. 

[DevildogUmp]

@HumblePie Just to get this clear in my head, the pitcher stood stock still in in the windup position while the runner ran the 90 feet to 2nd base? TOP is the moment when a pitcher is committed to pitching, not making a move to the plate. From the windup position, the pitcher commits to the pitch a lot sooner than when he is in the stretch - I would say as soon as he rocks he has established TOP.

[HumblePie]

8 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

@HumblePie ...  the pitcher stood stock still in in the windup position while the runner ran the 90 feet to 2nd base?

Yes. He's 13. I couldn't believe it either. R2 was not quite as heads up and only got about halfway to third.

[maven]

On 11/20/2024 at 5:49 AM, HumblePie said:

At the moment the pitcher makes his first move toward the plate, R1 is already standing on second base, but R2 has not yet reached third base.

 

I agree that R1 cannot be entitled to 2B until R2 is no longer entitled to it. So that's enough info to answer the OP: 1B is still occupied at TOP, and the batter is out on strikes and may not advance.

But what if R1 and R2 are BOTH standing on their advance bases? Then the answer will turn on what F1 has done. The bolded part above does not tell us enough info. In the windup, the time of pitch begins when F1 starts his delivery—usually a rocker step, sometimes just moving the hands. By the time he's moving "toward the plate," we're well into the time of pitch.

So, in the revised play, had F1 started his motion prior to both runners reaching their advance bases? If so, then we have R1, R2 at TOP, and 1B is "occupied" for the purposes of the D3K rule; if not, we have R2, R3 at TOP, and 1B is "open" for the purposes of the D3K rule. 

[agdz59]

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[maven]

13 hours ago, agdz59 said:

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I know exactly how you feel.