10 ejections this year

[bluejerred]

I've had 10 ejections this year (9 coaches, 1 player).  It seems like a lot, but at the same time I don't look back and think that they were unwarranted. I've been following the IAWE protocol of Ignore, Acknowledge, Warn, Eject; however, it seems like coaches are burning through it a lot faster than usual.  Anyone else dealing with this sort of thing?  I thought maybe I was ejecting too many people too fast, but I'm tired of dealing with poor behavior.  Enough is enough - I figure it's better for everyone to know that I'm willing to pull the trigger than try and be a therapist.  What say you?

[Tog Gee]

Good.

Maybe it seems like a lot, but players and coaches get out of line a lot.

@maven said something like "What we allow, we condone."

I am a coach first, and an umpire second, and I am a fan of warnings and ejections. It's not petty, it's appropriate.

Same as calling infield fly. 

[BigBlue4u]

11 hours ago, bluejerred said:

I've had 10 ejections this year (9 coaches, 1 player).  It seems like a lot, but at the same time I don't look back and think that they were unwarranted. I've been following the IAWE protocol of Ignore, Acknowledge, Warn, Eject; however, it seems like coaches are burning through it a lot faster than usual.  Anyone else dealing with this sort of thing?  I thought maybe I was ejecting too many people too fast, but I'm tired of dealing with poor behavior.  Enough is enough - I figure it's better for everyone to know that I'm willing to pull the trigger than try and be a therapist.  What say you?

There are some things you can do and perhaps I and others can help.  Can you give a couple of specific examples of some of your ejections? What you and the coach said, etc.  There are some things you can do to deescalate a situation.  Also, you may inadvertently be saying or doing something that escalates a situation.  On behalf of other posters who may want to help, please let us know.

[grayhawk]

Is it too many? That depends. How many games have your worked this year? What age levels? I see you work Central California Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth. Are those usually kids under 14? Daddy coaches or real coaches? Lots of factors could contribute to this many ejections.

[BLarson]

Depends...did you only work 10 games...maybe.
If you worked 100 games...probably not

[bluejerred]

First incident:  Described in a past post in this thread (3 coaches ejected, 10u travel ball)

Second set of ejections:  Semi-final in a regional tournament 13U. I'm PU.  Two teams with some prior beef (Team A beat Team B pretty bad and let them know it).  Team B was keeping it close and then took the lead in the 5th.  Things were getting intense between both teams.  Batter from team B was up to bat and pitcher from team A was pitching inside.  Tempers were getting hot and the batter got walked.  Coach from Team B changed pitchers.  Pitcher comes in and gets third out and then gives a rather large and demonstrative Trevor Bauer strikeout celebration while looking down the batter and the place blows up.  I eject the pitcher.  Team B coach comes out and asks why, I explain, and then he starts making irrelevant statements to the ejection (They are 13!, they have been chirping at us!, etc.).   I let him have his say and then he starts in with "you are screwing up this game for us, you are costing us a chance to win this game".  I eject him and he immediately leaves.  We use a BR rule to place a used substitute in the lineup to prevent a forfeit.  Another team B coach tells me what he thinks of my abilities while we were trying to find a way to prevent them from a forfeit.  My CC and the UIC of the tournament get on him before I eject him.  After everything, everyone was very well behaved and there were no more shenanigans.  Team B ended up winning a close game at the end and going to the finals.

Third set of ejections:  Two travel ball teams (10u) and fall ball.  Team A has a lineup with subs (as I'm told later), team B is batting through their lineup.  Team A makes an unannounced substitution that causes a batting out of order situation.  Team B appeals.  Being fall ball, I wasn't given lineups so we go to the books.  Arguments with the parents ensues, then coaches start yelling at each other across the field, then parents yell at coaches, then coaches yell at parents.  My attempts to slow everything down fail and I eject the head coaches for both teams and I look around at everyone else waiting to pull the trigger again.  Team B coach understands the ejection and apologizes.  Team A coach walks away and decides to take some parting shots at me.  What was worse was that I was on a field away from help and I was solo, so quite the mess there.

Fourth incident:  10u rec ball.  I'm BU and I'm mentoring a youth PU (HS Freshman).  Team B makes a live ball appeal that a runner from Team A didn't touch home plate.  HC from team A is already starting to come down the 3B line to give his opinion.  I talk the PU through the appeal, ask him what he say (he said the runner did not touch the plate and was sure of it), so then I tell him that is an out.  This was the third out.  HC for team A protests and "demonstrates" how his player touched the plate.  PU held his ground and told him what he had.  HC tried to continue but I step in and break up the conversation.  HC starts to yell "he has to pay attention" over and over.  I try to talk him down and speak sense, but he isn't having it.  He then lets out a hearty "JESUS CHRIST".  I eject him at this point and then he asks me why I ejected him.  I tell him this is a 10u rec ball game with a youth umpire and that what he was doing wasn't acceptable for this setting.  He takes some parting shots at me.  

After the game, my youth partner and I are leaving the field and the ejected HC seeks us out while we are on the field and lays into me about a play that was controversial.

(Pitch was in flight and partner said "hold on" before the batter hit it to center field.  Ball was caught and everyone played it.  Parents started to pipe up and I pointed at my partner and the pitcher and said "Play!" in an authoritative tone to squash it.)

I keep walking with my partner and tell him that he shouldn't be seeking us out on the field after the game.  He takes some more parting shots and I head back to the umpire's room.

[Kevin_K]

 

44 minutes ago, bluejerred said:

Third set of ejections:  Two travel ball teams (10u) and fall ball. 

• Nothing else needs to be said. When the monkeys start flinging poo at one another, start loading the train for the parking lot express. As Alan Iverson once said, "It's practice, man"

Fourth incident:  10u rec ball.  I'm BU and I'm mentoring a youth PU (HS Freshman). 

•  See previous comment x2 for the abuse of a kid  

Your signature suggests that people should read Verbal Judo. If this is the case, it might be helpful to use its tenets not to necessarily win the arguments with coaches, but to open their eyes to their inane behavior in front of children and toward children.

Ejections frequently present themselves in the heat of a game. Often they result directly from our failures leading to the blow up, like when a HC starts barking about a 15 year old needing to pay attention. A well placed interjection of, "You do realize he's 15, right?" or "It's fall ball" can stun them into silence long enough for us to walk them off the ledge and back to the dugout rather than running them.

I've found success in using what Mrs. Kevin_K calls the Kevin death stare when stupidity tumbles out of the mouths of people who don't realize how they sound to a reasonable people. Ignoring idiots usually encourages poor conduct.

Experience is the best learning tool. The more you see the better you get at almost anything. Your experience will teach you that the only ejections you regret are the ones you don't make.

YMMV

[BigBlue4u]

34 minutes ago, bluejerred said:

First incident:  Described in a past post in this thread (3 coaches ejected, 10u travel ball)

Second set of ejections:  Semi-final in a regional tournament 13U. I'm PU.  Two teams with some prior beef (Team A beat Team B pretty bad and let them know it).  Team B was keeping it close and then took the lead in the 5th.  Things were getting intense between both teams.  Batter from team B was up to bat and pitcher from team A was pitching inside.  Tempers were getting hot and the batter got walked.  If a game gets to this point, you should get both coaches together and tell them you need their help to keep the game under control.  This often works because it gives the coaches a chance to consider what's going on. Coach from Team B changed pitchers.  Pitcher comes in and gets third out and then gives a rather large and demonstrative Trevor Bauer strikeout celebration while looking down the batter and the place blows up.  I eject the pitcher.  Under the circumstances, if you ejected the pitcher in a relatively calm manner your action, which is perfectly justified, will not inflame things. Good for you. Team B coach comes out and asks why, I explain, and then he starts making irrelevant statements to the ejection (They are 13!, they have been chirping at us!, etc.).   I let him have his say and then he starts in with "you are screwing up this game for us, you are costing us a chance to win this game".  I eject him and he immediately leaves. Good for you in letting him have his say. He ejected himself.  We use a BR rule to place a used substitute in the lineup to prevent a forfeit.  Another team B coach tells me what he thinks of my abilities while we were trying to find a way to prevent them from a forfeit.  My CC and the UIC of the tournament get on him before I eject him.  After everything, everyone was very well behaved and there were no more shenanigans.  Team B ended up winning a close game at the end and going to the finals.

Third set of ejections:  Two travel ball teams (10u) and fall ball.  Team A has a lineup with subs (as I'm told later), team B is batting through their lineup.  Team A makes an unannounced substitution that causes a batting out of order situation.  Team B appeals.  Being fall ball, I wasn't given lineups so we go to the books.  Arguments with the parents ensues, then coaches start yelling at each other across the field, then parents yell at coaches, then coaches yell at parents.  My attempts to slow everything down fail You didn't say what you did to slow everything down.  However, right or wrong, it didn't work. and I eject the head coaches for both teams and I look around at everyone else waiting to pull the trigger again.  Team B coach understands the ejection and apologizes.  Team A coach walks away and decides to take some parting shots at me.  What was worse was that I was on a field away from help and I was solo, so quite the mess there.  That's going to happen once in a while.  Just be careful not to say anything that would inflame the situation.

Fourth incident:  10u rec ball.  I'm BU and I'm mentoring a youth PU (HS Freshman).  Team B makes a live ball appeal that a runner from Team A didn't touch home plate.  HC from team A is already starting to come down the 3B line to give his opinion.  I talk the PU through the appeal, ask him what he say (he said the runner did not touch the plate and was sure of it), so then I tell him that is an out.  This was the third out.  HC for team A protests and "demonstrates" how his player touched the plate.  If you ever take a run off the board for a player missing home plate, you are almost guaranteed that you'll get an argument. The coach HAS to say something, if for no other reason to show his players and parents that he's fighting for his team.  Again, be careful of what you do and say. PU held his ground and told him what he had.  HC tried to continue but I step in and break up the conversation.  HC starts to yell "he has to pay attention" over and over.  I try to talk him down and speak sense, but he isn't having it.  He then lets out a hearty "JESUS CHRIST".  I eject him at this point and then he asks me why I ejected him. A coach asking you why he was ejected for profanity, tells you a lot about the coach.  I tell him this is a 10u rec ball game with a youth umpire and that what he was doing wasn't acceptable for this setting.  He takes some parting shots at me.  

After the game, my youth partner and I are leaving the field and the ejected HC seeks us out while we are on the field and lays into me about a play that was controversial.

(Pitch was in flight and partner said "hold on" before the batter hit it to center field.  Ball was caught and everyone played it.  Parents started to pipe up and I pointed at my partner and the pitcher and said "Play!" in an authoritative tone to squash it.)

I keep walking with my partner and tell him that he shouldn't be seeking us out on the field after the game.  He takes some more parting shots and I head back to the umpire's room. Just keep walking and be very careful of what you say.  And, just as important, do report the incident.  I'm enclosing a screen shot of some things you can say to coaches.  If it does not come through, please let me know I'll try something else.

 

[grayhawk]

32 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

 

That's from Ken Allan, isn't it?

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, bluejerred said:

First incident:  Described in a past post in this thread (3 coaches ejected, 10u travel ball)

Second set of ejections:  Semi-final in a regional tournament 13U. I'm PU.  Two teams with some prior beef (Team A beat Team B pretty bad and let them know it).  Team B was keeping it close and then took the lead in the 5th.  Things were getting intense between both teams.  Batter from team B was up to bat and pitcher from team A was pitching inside.  Tempers were getting hot and the batter got walked.  Coach from Team B changed pitchers.  Pitcher comes in and gets third out and then gives a rather large and demonstrative Trevor Bauer strikeout celebration while looking down the batter and the place blows up.  I eject the pitcher.  Team B coach comes out and asks why, I explain, and then he starts making irrelevant statements to the ejection (They are 13!, they have been chirping at us!, etc.).   I let him have his say and then he starts in with "you are screwing up this game for us, you are costing us a chance to win this game".  I eject him and he immediately leaves.  We use a BR rule to place a used substitute in the lineup to prevent a forfeit.  Another team B coach tells me what he thinks of my abilities while we were trying to find a way to prevent them from a forfeit.  My CC and the UIC of the tournament get on him before I eject him.  After everything, everyone was very well behaved and there were no more shenanigans.  Team B ended up winning a close game at the end and going to the finals.

Third set of ejections:  Two travel ball teams (10u) and fall ball.  Team A has a lineup with subs (as I'm told later), team B is batting through their lineup.  Team A makes an unannounced substitution that causes a batting out of order situation.  Team B appeals.  Being fall ball, I wasn't given lineups so we go to the books.  Arguments with the parents ensues, then coaches start yelling at each other across the field, then parents yell at coaches, then coaches yell at parents.  My attempts to slow everything down fail and I eject the head coaches for both teams and I look around at everyone else waiting to pull the trigger again.  Team B coach understands the ejection and apologizes.  Team A coach walks away and decides to take some parting shots at me.  What was worse was that I was on a field away from help and I was solo, so quite the mess there.

Fourth incident:  10u rec ball.  I'm BU and I'm mentoring a youth PU (HS Freshman).  Team B makes a live ball appeal that a runner from Team A didn't touch home plate.  HC from team A is already starting to come down the 3B line to give his opinion.  I talk the PU through the appeal, ask him what he say (he said the runner did not touch the plate and was sure of it), so then I tell him that is an out.  This was the third out.  HC for team A protests and "demonstrates" how his player touched the plate.  PU held his ground and told him what he had.  HC tried to continue but I step in and break up the conversation.  HC starts to yell "he has to pay attention" over and over.  I try to talk him down and speak sense, but he isn't having it.  He then lets out a hearty "JESUS CHRIST".  I eject him at this point and then he asks me why I ejected him.  I tell him this is a 10u rec ball game with a youth umpire and that what he was doing wasn't acceptable for this setting.  He takes some parting shots at me.  

After the game, my youth partner and I are leaving the field and the ejected HC seeks us out while we are on the field and lays into me about a play that was controversial.

(Pitch was in flight and partner said "hold on" before the batter hit it to center field.  Ball was caught and everyone played it.  Parents started to pipe up and I pointed at my partner and the pitcher and said "Play!" in an authoritative tone to squash it.)

I keep walking with my partner and tell him that he shouldn't be seeking us out on the field after the game.  He takes some more parting shots and I head back to the umpire's room.

It's pretty clear that these ejections have been happening during games with younger players, which means less experienced coaches (Daddy ball) and parents that still think their kids will be professional ball players, or they will get free rides through college. Since you're not a push over, which is the case for many umpires at this level, you are getting more than your fair share of ejections. I wouldn't sweat it.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Just curious...we're all just dudes on an online forum here representing quite a swath of US and international umpiring perspectives...have you shared your data with your local leadership (beyond ejection report reviews...) and or local mentors? Gauging "how someone is doing" relative to their ejections is really market specific. I would encourage you to speak with local mentors, too and find out what their ejection ratios are and again, there's lots of factors but, getting some local data will also help inform you...

~Dawg

[bluejerred]

I talk with my mentor about my ejections fairly soon after they happen (he is also my UIC).  He is a straight-forward guy, so if I made a mistake, he will let me know - and I am open to the criticism.   He will tell me if he would have done something different, but he hasn't told me that any of my ejections were bad.  Some of them didn't surprise him at all - either they were straight-forward (coaches escalating amongst themselves) or he knew who it was and chuckled.

I'm pretty lucky to have him.  He helped get me back into it and I've learned a lot from him.  It's awesome when we are on the field together - we have a good time.

To @SeeingEyeDog's point, I am curious on how you guys approach it based on your association/region/demographic.

[beerguy55]

Your anecdotal experience is not enough to really assess, if you're truly being honest and unbiased about our approach in whether or not ejections are warranted.

As said before, whether you umped 5 games or 205 games matters to your numbers.

You might also want to compare how your numbers line up with your peers against, presumably and/or mostly, the same set of teams/players/coaches.

None of these, on their own, really gives a complete answer, but the more comparisons in aggregate might tell a story.  That story could be that coaches/players are getting worse, or not, and/or your peers are too lenient and/or that you are too strict and/or you are too lenient.

Because there are really two possibilities, over the course of a season, and they should both be weighed with equal probability.

One is your numbers are appropriate - properly handled, warned and administered, with the right amount of rope given to the ejected.

One is they are not - they could be too high - either due to a perpetual short fuse, always looking for confrontation, always interpreting the worst case scenario, or some degree of dick measuring...or too low - because you're a pushover.

In my experience, both scenarios are just as likely in any given game, but over the course of a season you start to see common denominators...you either see the same coaches showing up in ejection reports, or the same umpires.  And, usually, that will tell you where the problem lies.

[Aging_Arbiter]

I am proud to say that I have NEVER ejected anyone.

 

 

Now, I have confirmed THEIR desire to no longer participate in that days contest...... 😁

[bluejerred]

I like to think I give enough rope under the right circumstances (heat-of-the-moment, honest mistakes, tight contest).  We all talk about the 3 P's (Personal, Profane, Prolonged); however, I think domineering/overbearing and passive-aggressive behavior should be dealt with the same way - with no mercy and decisive action.  If for no other reason, it takes the enjoyment out of the day when people behave like this and I'm not about to let them ruin my day. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

4 hours ago, bluejerred said:

I talk with my mentor about my ejections fairly soon after they happen (he is also my UIC).  He is a straight-forward guy, so if I made a mistake, he will let me know - and I am open to the criticism.   He will tell me if he would have done something different, but he hasn't told me that any of my ejections were bad.  Some of them didn't surprise him at all - either they were straight-forward (coaches escalating amongst themselves) or he knew who it was and chuckled.

I'm pretty lucky to have him.  He helped get me back into it and I've learned a lot from him.  It's awesome when we are on the field together - we have a good time.

To @SeeingEyeDog's point, I am curious on how you guys approach it based on your association/region/demographic.

Well...then my response to that is...your market has a culture problem. Since you have the UIC's ear, you should discuss what your association can do to change the culture. If you're not having pre-season mandatory coach's meetings conducted by the UIC...you should be doing that. In addition to covering rules, rule changes, etc...you should also be discussing how to engage with an umpire. I know that sounds a bit silly but, given the age group you are working and given the data you have shared, you clearly either have coaches who don't know how to engage with an umpire or don't care to engage properly. Finally, you should be reviewing your league's progressive discipline procedures with the coaches during that meeting. What are the penalties for a first time ejection? What are the penalties for a 5 time offender, 7 time offender, etc.? Maybe you're doing all of this already...

Changing the culture is not an easy task. I was on a local LL board of directors during a culture change. We had people in their 60's who were treating the league like their own personal fiefdom. Discipline was not being delivered consistently.

Adults (parents, coaches, league leadership and umpires) have a responsibility to set a proper example for our community's kids and enforce progressive discipline and LEAVE the leagues they associate/work with in BETTER condition than we found them. There is also a business consequence to improving the culture. Word gets out and more people join the league. More players means more games to umpire means more cash...

~Dawg

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 minute ago, bluejerred said:

I like to think I give enough rope under the right circumstances (heat-of-the-moment, honest mistakes, tight contest).  We all talk about the 3 P's (Personal, Profane, Prolonged); however, I think domineering/overbearing and passive-aggressive behavior should be dealt with the same way - with no mercy and decisive action.  If for no other reason, it takes the enjoyment out of the day when people behave like this and I'm not about to let them ruin my day. 

Yeah, that's kind of the standard I and my local brothers use...Baseball is a game. Games are meant to be fun. When someone is making the game not fun, it's time to warn/eject.

~Dawg

[BigBlue4u]

21 hours ago, grayhawk said:

That's from Ken Allan, isn't it?

Who is Ken Allan?

[grayhawk]

4 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

Who is Ken Allan?

He's a former D1 umpire and has been involved with NFHS for many years, including being on their rules committee. He used to give a talk about game management and most of what is on that sheet comes right from his talks, as far as I can tell.

[834k3r]

On 11/11/2024 at 2:37 PM, bluejerred said:

Being fall ball, I wasn't given lineups...

If I don't get lineups (or the coaches ask if they have to provide lineups), my response is the same:  I'll allow it, but I can't adjudicate lineup-related violations (including ones similar to the substitution issue you experienced).

[BigBlue4u]

Apparently my first effort did not completely print.  

Things Umpires Can Say

It is important for an umpire’s credibility to give the right answer or say the right thing to a coach during a game.  The general idea is to get the conversation over and get the game going.  

1.    The best thing you can say to a coach when he comes out:
    “What did you see?’
    Other things you can say:
“I got a very good look at that.”
‘That is what I saw from where I had to make the call.”
“And your point is?”  
“What rule applies to this play?”
    
2.    When a coach is repeating himself:
    “Hold it! Let me be sure I understand what you are saying.”

3.    If he won’t answer your question:
    “OK coach, we’re playing ball.”  And walk away

4.    If a coach starts to get animated:
“I am not going anywhere, I am listening to you.”
“I will listen to you but, I won’t listen to you yell at me.”
If he is in your face, “Back off or you are done right now!”

5.    Bullet proof answers:
    ‘He’s OK for me.”
    “I didn’t like the pitch.”

6.    Coach comes out on every close play against his team:
    “If you come out here one more time and I don’t think it is necessary, you are going to get     ejected for delaying the game.” 

7.    Dugout Warning:
    “If I hear any more out of this dugout, someone is going to get ejected. This is your     warning for the rest of the game.”

8.    Coach tries to tell you what to do:
“Coach, don’t ever come out here and try to tell me how to run this game.”

9.    Catcher jerking pitches:
        “If it’s not good enough for you, why should it be good enough for me?”

10.    Coach refuses to accept your ruling:
        “Coach, if you think I am wrong, play the game under protest.  (Make sure you know
        the involved rule) Otherwise we are playing ball.  What do you want to do?”

11.    Coach refuses to stop arguing:
    “If you don’t return immediately to the dugout you are going to get ejected for delaying the     game.”

12.    Coach wants to continue the discussion:  
    “Coach, you asked me a question and I answered it. Let’s play ball.”

13.    Coach says he wasn't talking to you:  "Coach, if I can hear you, you are talking to me."

[SeeingEyeDog]

When a coach is repeating himself?

"Coach, you're repeating yourself. This conversation is over, you have my ruling and we're going to resume the game now. If you continue, you will be ejected..."

~Dawg