Timing play

[Jay W]

Trying to understand if timing play applies in this situation: 2 outs, runner on 3b. Two strikes in batter, pitch is thrown, batter swings for strike 3 but ball not caught by catcher & rolls all the way to the backstop. R3 easily crosses the plate and the batter freezes for a split second until coach yells instructions to run to 1B. By now, catcher retrieves the ball, and the first baseman has run down the line towards home, catcher throws ball to the first baseman who then tags the batter as he begins to run towards 1B. Is that 3rd out considered a “force out” even if the batter/runner was tagged out?

[ArchAngel72]

Guess I need to read up on it too..

does not seem to ever happen at my level but Im still wrapping my head around the fact its not, thinking huh?  how could it not be.

 

[noumpere]

1a) It's not a timing play.

1b) It's not even a time play.

2) It's not a force out.

3) It is, however, the third out being made by the BR before reaching first.  So, no run scores.

[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Guess I need to read up on it too..

does not seem to ever happen at my level but Im still wrapping my head around the fact its not, thinking huh?  how could it not be.

 

I get a call from a coach about once every few months with Rec ball umpires not understanding when a run doesn’t score. 

[Coach Carl]

5.08 How a Team Scores

(a)  One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

In your play, (a) was satisfied but EXCEPTION (1) existed.  It does not matter how the batter-runner was retired.  He or first base can be tagged and the exception still exists.

 

[Velho]

To round out the conversation since this applies beyond BR to 1B: "Forced" is a state the runner is in until they have touched the next base. If they are out while in that "forced" state, it's not a time play.

Whether they themselves or the bag are touched doesn't matter, they were out while forced.

Extending further, not a time play if they abandon while forced or are out on appeal for missing a base to which they were forced.

[maven]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

To round out the conversation since this applies beyond BR to 1B: "Forced" is a state a runner is in until he has touched the next base or a trailing runner has been retired. If they make the third out while in that "forced" state, it's not a time play.

FIFY.

[Tog Gee]

Regarding NOT using the word force when referring to the BR going to first:

 

Is there a practical difference between a BR going to first and a forced runner going to another base?

The BR isn't "forced" simply because no other runner is behind them, pushing them?

Toggy

 

 

 

[maven]

34 minutes ago, Tog Gee said:

Regarding NOT using the word force when referring to the BR going to first:

 

Is there a practical difference between a BR going to first and a forced runner going to another base?

The BR isn't "forced" simply because no other runner is behind them, pushing them?

Toggy

A few practical differences:

1. With a forced runner, if they remain on the base FROM which they are forced, they can be tagged for an out standing on the base. Not true for the BR, as there's no base from which he's forced.
2. A force play ends when the forced runner reaches his advance base, or when a trailing runner is retired. None of that is true for the BR.
3. A force play triggers the FPSR for codes that have that provision. Not true of the BR at 1B.
4. When people refer to the play at 1B before the BR touches as a force play, it shows that they don't know the definition. This lack of knowledge can lead to confusion, for instance in thinking that a retouch appeal is a force play.
5. It's the rule.

There might be more. But what's the motivation for the question? Is it merely that you still want to call this a force play, when it isn't one? Inertia? Can't be arsed to use the correct terminology?

Speaking of which...I wish a mod would fix the title of this thread...just sayin.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Tog Gee said:

Regarding NOT using the word force when referring to the BR going to first:

 

Is there a practical difference between a BR going to first and a forced runner going to another base?

The BR isn't "forced" simply because no other runner is behind them, pushing them?

Toggy

 

 

 

The batter/runner is indeed forced to advance to first - they are also obligated, required, mandated, obliged, and compelled to do so.   You might even say charged, ordered, decreed, commanded or dictated.   It is expected, and they are committed to do so.  They cannot stay in the batter's box - the next batter would have an objection - and the pitcher may not pitch to the next batter if the b/r is simply standing between home and first.  He MUST advance.

It's just not a "force play" - which only applies to runners, due to the batter becoming a runner.

37 minutes ago, maven said:

There might be more.

Apparently if a B/R touches first, and then retreats towards home he must be tagged out...unlike runners where the force would be re-applied.

[Tog Gee]

29 minutes ago, maven said:

Is it merely that you still want to call this a force play, when it isn't one? Inertia? Can't be arsed to use the correct terminology?

Naw, naw. Just wanted to fully understand it. I think it's interesting that it's not technically a force.

Good to know that practically speaking, there's no difference when the BR is out if a defensive player, with the ball, touches first base. Same for BR missing first, if appealed, means no runs count if it's the third out.

I was aware that all aspects of batter running to first aren't identical to another runner forced to another base.

Like in FED, the catcher doesn't interfere with the batter, they obstruct. The nuances of that action and enforcement matter way more than the term. I don't bother correcting folks when they call it interference.

Toggy

 

[Tog Gee]

In the future, I'll be sure to not call BR running to first the "F" word.

I have a clicker that I use to just count my semantic missteps...

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Tog Gee said:

Regarding NOT using the word force when referring to the BR going to first:

 

Is there a practical difference between a BR going to first and a forced runner going to another base?

The BR isn't "forced" simply because no other runner is behind them, pushing them?

Toggy

 

 

 

OBR eliminated the only practical difference but the other 2 codes do have a difference in when the batter is out at 1B and a runner is out at a forced base. 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Tog Gee said:

In the future, I'll be sure to not call BR running to first the "F" word.

As you said, knowing the details matters more than getting caught up in the common parlance - especially considering MLB defines out at 1B as a force https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play#.

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The batter/runner is indeed forced to advance to first -

 

Sure, but he's not Forced.

 

(The caps indicate it's a defined term,)

[beerguy55]

53 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Sure, but he's not Forced.

 

(The caps indicate it's a defined term,)

Like I said, he's forced, it's just not a "force play".

It is "force play" that is defined in the OBR, not "force" or "forced".

 

Otherwise, the word "force" or "forced" is used many times throughout the OBR, and is applied to players forced to vacate their base, forced off balance by a pitch, "forced to return" to a base, plus being "forced to replace a pitcher", along with the force of a batted/ball knocking a glove off, and in one case where a base on balls/HBP with bases loaded "forces the batter and all runners to advance". 5.08(b)

Even FED mentions putting a runner out while holding the ball and touching a base where "a runner is forced to advance or return."