NFHS - RE: Nestor Cortes' moves but mostly hats falling off the pitcher's head

[Tog Gee]

In the FED realm. Hopefully we don't get a bunch of young folks emulating Nestor's antics, but...

 

Windup

"The pitcher is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After the pitcher starts the movement to pitch, the pitcher must continue the motion without interruption or alteration."

Does this prevent FED pitchers from employing silly antics and extra movements during the windup? This quote is from general windup regs, not with runners on.

 

 

Set

Does a FED pitcher have the option to add any extra movements or is the requirement to simply step home and throw? How much horseplay is allowed here? I know the motion must be continuous if there's runners on:

"[balk for] failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as the pitcher habitually uses in the delivery;"

What about with no runners? Can a FED pitcher pause from the Set then?

Edited April 25, 2024 by Tog Gee

[BigBlue4u]

3 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

Does this prevent FED pitchers from employing silly antics and extra movements during the windup? This quote is from general windup regs, not with runners on.

3-3-1-f-4  A warning then an ejection if repeated.

[johnnyg08]

Funny thing is that it doesn't work. 

If it did, he'd be in Cy Young territory which he isn't. 

Dumb gimmick...and I hate that this stuff trickles down. 

[Thunderheads]

Had a kid yesterday - with 2 strikes on the batter who'd double pump his lead leg a little bit, ... made me think of this stuff 'trickling down' ....

[ArchAngel72]

I got a kid doing his best IDK pitcher imitation.

He would not look at home until after he was coming out of set.  2 times I was jumping out hollering no pitch no pitch. Cause he was blowing the stop sign as I was holding it up for a kid grabbing the bat or whatever.

I meant to chat with the coach about that after the game but the kid was only in 2 innings and that was early in the game and I forgot after.

 

[wolfe_man]

38 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Had a kid yesterday - with 2 strikes on the batter who'd double pump his lead leg a little bit, ... made me think of this stuff 'trickling down' ....

I had a similar problem with a JV game this week.  F1 kept toe-tapping his front toe and then just barely pausing before coming home.  Of course, visiting coach had no issue with it until 5th inning when he wants (needs) a balk called so he could advance a runner.  I love the game, but the coach stuff gets old sometimes.

[BLWizzRanger]

So what is the remedy during the game that the pitcher comes set before the batter comes ready?  NFHS specifically?  I think NCAA is giving them a warning, then it is the reset if not used, per batter. (tell me I am wrong so that I can get it right) But, since NFHS doesn't have that, do you warn for a few times (pick a number, say 3), the fourth you warn the coach that the pitcher will be removed from pitching (maybe the game?) on the next occurrence due to him not following direction and he is being unsportsmanlike?  I had a pitcher that I stopped maybe 5 times over 3 or 4 innings the other day and it was ridiculous.

[wolfe_man]

5 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

So what is the remedy during the game that the pitcher comes set before the batter comes ready?  NFHS specifically?  I think NCAA is giving them a warning, then it is the reset if not used, per batter. (tell me I am wrong so that I can get it right) But, since NFHS doesn't have that, do you warn for a few times (pick a number, say 3), the fourth you warn the coach that the pitcher will be removed from pitching (maybe the game?) on the next occurrence due to him not following direction and he is being unsportsmanlike?  I had a pitcher that I stopped maybe 5 times over 3 or 4 innings the other day and it was ridiculous.

For NFHS, I just say "no pitch" with the wave-off signal, then explain that the batter must be alert and facing the pitcher before you can throw a pitch. I then have them re-set and start over.

I normally only see this at JV or 9th levels, so maybe a couple of times each year.  I've never had to do it more than twice in a game thus far.   I don't believe we have any punishment we can dole out here though.  We have to just keep stopping and resetting them until their coach gets it and removes him.

[BLWizzRanger]

2 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

For NFHS, I just say "no pitch" with the wave-off signal, then explain that the batter must be alert and facing the pitcher before you can throw a pitch. I then have them re-set and start over.

I normally only see this at JV or 9th levels, so maybe a couple of times each year.  I've never had to do it more than twice in a game thus far.   I don't believe we have any punishment we can dole out here though.  We have to just keep stopping and resetting them until their coach gets it and removes him.

I don't know, but we were advised that a hat falling off of the pitcher during delivery multiple times could be a cause for removal from the mound... just sayin...

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I don't know, but we were advised that a hat falling off of the pitcher during delivery multiple times could be a cause for removal from the mound... just sayin...

not sure if this is serious or not but ... not sure what kind of grounds we have to do so? ( I CERTAINLY could be wrong!)

[BLWizzRanger]

4 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

not sure if this is serious or not but ... not sure what kind of grounds we have to do so? ( I CERTAINLY could be wrong!)

 

Around the 18:20 min mark.

[Thunderheads]

7 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

 

Around the 18:20 min mark.

See .... I told you I was probably wrong!  

[wolfe_man]

23 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I don't know, but we were advised that a hat falling off of the pitcher during delivery multiple times could be a cause for removal from the mound... just sayin...

I would approach this very carefully.  I'd make sure that's what my local assignor wanted before I opened up that Pandora's box personally.  I don't honestly know where we'd have a rule to enforce a hat falling off, even frequently falling off. 

Where does this start/stop once we open that door?  If the batter swings and his helmet falls off - are we going to be addressing that? How about once he hits and it falls off every time that he runs to the next base?  This is a bad string to pick at and unravel.

While hats falling off is annoying, I think it's picking boogers to address some of this stuff and it won't help us to earn a solid reputation from coaches, players or fans. 

If your assignor wants this called, then I'll leave it to you and won't judge - but I'm not doing this in my area.  I've got enough on my plate (no pun intended) without looking for more things to pick.  But at least we're off of eye black and jewelry now though!

PS - I watched the video and he keeps saying "regularly" and "in the umpire's judgment".  I'm still not sold we have an actual rule to enforce here - but I will say if it is truly an issue, then approach it to the coach first and see if it can be handled.

[Tog Gee]

So, just want to know how the rules apply to all all this. The Nestor stuff.

BigBlue referenced this: "behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play;"

With runners on, the pitcher cannot pause, must be continuous.

 

From the set, is it generally enforced the the pitcher just lifts, steps home and throws without any extra or oddball moves? I know that with runners on, it's ill-advised to do them...

For windup, they must generally perform the same set of moves without alteration?

 

Anywhere else in the FED rule book that prohibits Nestorisms?

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by Tog Gee

[johnnyg08]

36 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

So what is the remedy during the game that the pitcher comes set before the batter comes ready?  NFHS specifically?  I think NCAA is giving them a warning, then it is the reset if not used, per batter. (tell me I am wrong so that I can get it right) But, since NFHS doesn't have that, do you warn for a few times (pick a number, say 3), the fourth you warn the coach that the pitcher will be removed from pitching (maybe the game?) on the next occurrence due to him not following direction and he is being unsportsmanlike?  I had a pitcher that I stopped maybe 5 times over 3 or 4 innings the other day and it was ridiculous.

Warnings don't work, only use them if required by rule. Just call balks, illegal pitches, etc...

Those are the only things that will maybe have an impact. 

[BLWizzRanger]

34 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I would approach this very carefully.  I'd make sure that's what my local assignor wanted before I opened up that Pandora's box personally.  I don't honestly know where we'd have a rule to enforce a hat falling off, even frequently falling off. 

Where does this start/stop once we open that door?  If the batter swings and his helmet falls off - are we going to be addressing that? How about once he hits and it falls off every time that he runs to the next base?  This is a bad string to pick at and unravel.

While hats falling off is annoying, I think it's picking boogers to address some of this stuff and it won't help us to earn a solid reputation from coaches, players or fans. 

If your assignor wants this called, then I'll leave it to you and won't judge - but I'm not doing this in my area.  I've got enough on my plate (no pun intended) without looking for more things to pick.  But at least we're off of eye black and jewelry now though!

PS - I watched the video and he keeps saying "regularly" and "in the umpire's judgment".  I'm still not sold we have an actual rule to enforce here - but I will say if it is truly an issue, then approach it to the coach first and see if it can be handled.

No no no no please don't misunderstand.  I have never tried to enforce it and I don't carry bobby pins onto the field.  But, it is there and the resolution was what was suggested in the video clip.  The only thought that runs through my mind is that the kid needs a haircut.

[wolfe_man]

8 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

No no no no please don't misunderstand.  I have never tried to enforce it and I don't carry bobby pins onto the field.  But, it is there and the resolution was what was suggested in the video clip.  The only thought that runs through my mind is that the kid needs a haircut.

LOL - I honestly couldn't see you enforcing it, but we all know guys that would.   Thank you for confirming!

FWIW, this has been improving for me personally.  I've seen less hats on the ground this past two years or so thankfully.  I still see the big hair, but evidently they're learning better how to keep them on their heads.

[Thunderheads]

55 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I've seen less hats on the ground this past two years or so thankfully. 

I've seen 2 hat fliers in the last 2 weeks

[wolfe_man]

36 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

I've seen 2 hat fliers in the last 2 weeks

Tell those shaggy-haired Michiganders to cut those locks!  smh Kids these days...

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I don't know, but we were advised that a hat falling off of the pitcher during delivery multiple times could be a cause for removal from the mound... just sayin...

 

2 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

not sure if this is serious or not but ... not sure what kind of grounds we have to do so? ( I CERTAINLY could be wrong!)

 

1 hour ago, wolfe_man said:

LOL - I honestly couldn't see you enforcing it, but we all know guys that would.  

 

I would be one of those guys.  You should be, too.

 

10.2.3C

[wolfe_man]

20 minutes ago, noumpere said:

 

 

I would be one of those guys.  You should be, too.

 

10.2.3C

I hear you - and if it's every pitch for an inning or two - then okay.  But, if it's only every once in a while, then I'm not grabbing that end of the stick.  I think this is one of those cases where you have to be there and see how much of a distraction it is before you can truly make a judgment call - and it's clearly going to be a judgment call.

 

There is certainly a place where we can rule from though as shown in @Senor Azul's post on this question back on 06/14/2021:

The issue raised about the pitcher not being able to keep his cap on is covered in 2019 case play 10.2.3C—

10.2.3 SITUATION C F1’s cap frequently falls off his head and in the umpire’s judgment, it is either distracting to the batter or delaying the game. RULING: The umpire shall instruct the defensive team’s coach that F1’s cap must be secured. If this situation is not corrected, F1 will be removed as pitcher.

 

[RBIbaseball]

I had this issue a couple years ago as a BU.

 

Starting pitcher. Threw for 4 or 5 innings.  on almost EVERY pitch his hat flew off

10-12 sec of messing with his 'fro and getting his hat to "stay on" every time -  x50 ?  ... we wasted a lot of time. I did hurry the kid after a little while and to his credit had a good attitude and was trying to pick it up and speed up faster, but still

Probably would have been a great example to implement this. "Coach, when you guys come back out in the second inning, if you can't help him figure out how to keep his hat stay on while pitching, he won't be able to continue." ... or something, idk the best way to handle it.

[Tog Gee]

I went ahead and edited the topic title to include hats falling off lol.

I'll keep asking around on Nestorisms.

[BLWizzRanger]

18 minutes ago, Tog Gee said:

I went ahead and edited the topic title to include hats falling off lol.

I'll keep asking around on Nestorisms.

Apologies. 

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/41d7ed95-2333-405e-99a0-397c9ee1c2f6/gif

 

[The Man in Blue]

Goofus:

"Coach, you tell that pitcher with the little-bitty head that he better take some Barry Bonds supplements or get a hat that fits him!  That's your warning under 10.2.3!"

Gallant:

"Hey coach, we can't have this.  The kid's going to get hurt chasing after his hat instead of watching a line drive coming back at him.  Besides, if the batter dribbles one back into his hat, we have an automatic triple."

I have a solution:

Well, I had a solution.

 

Seriously though, here is why it is an issue:

It's been a year or two, but I had one and called it out.  Safety is the issue.  Every pitch he was grabbing at his cap or chasing it; either way, he was not paying attention once he released the ball.  Coach agreed after I explained that.