2 for fighting

[JonnyCat]

8 hours ago, tpatience said:

Is it ideal? No. But that’s just the way it is 

Thanks for bringing that up. "That's just the way it is."

Its that acceptance that continues us down this path of futility.

There's no impetus for change.

Comment not directed any anyone in particular, just illustrating the general attitude of our avocation.

[tpatience]

7 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Thanks for bringing that up. "That's just the way it is."

Its that acceptance that continues us down this path of futility.

There's no impetus for change.

Comment not directed any anyone in particular, just illustrating the general attitude of our avocation.

I get what you’re saying, 100%. But it’s just the truth. We’re only sitting at 150 umpires ish and our association has the most schools in the section. It’s just tough to get two umpires on a freshman/JV game even if we had the numbers. There’s been a handful of varsity games scheduled in the last few years that have been assigned one umpire just because we didn’t have the numbers to assign two 

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, tpatience said:

I get what you’re saying, 100%. But it’s just the truth.

And I agree, it is the truth. But what is anyone doing about it? Most of the associations mind sets are stuck in the 1970's.

If someone asks me to do a game solo, the answer is no. And it's not like I'm hurting for games. I could work games every day during the week, and at least 4 on the weekends. (I don't)

When are people going to realize that we, as officials, are in the drivers seat? Is everyone hurting for money that bad that no one wants to turn down games? What's the reason for not going on "strike?"

I have a thousand other things to do than work crappy games for poverty wages with SH*#ty working conditions. 

I love umpiring, but for F*#Ks sake, I don't let it run my life. If it's not enjoyable, I don't do those games.

[The Man in Blue]

22 hours ago, Jimurray said:

What would you gain by being an employee?

I would rather not be an employee.  However, if I cannot truly contract my own games, I am not an independent contractor.  So, if I am going to obtain work the way an employee does, I want the benefits.

I know every area works differently.  In my area, here is what I see (I won't even say "the way it is" because I know and acknowledge my biases here):

IHSA is our state NFHS association.  They license us and require us to attend a clinic every other year.  They do NOT have anything to do with regular season assigning, just the post-season (regionals, sectionals, super-sectionals, state).

There are somewhere around 115 different local associations (across all sports) recognized by IHSA.  Some are multi-sport associations, some are single sport focused associations.  What they do is up to them.  I have not seen a local association that assigns games.  Most provide clinics and training, a mailing/distribution list that gives you access to e-mails looking for officials/replacements, and social events.

My particular local association is not one that I typically join.  I have seen little to no benefit in my 15 or so years.  They put together a golf outing and a banquet, and give away a small scholarship each year.  They do not advocate for officials nor do they actively recruit new officials.  They do not handle scheduling (instead, officers and leaders do that independently -- more on that in a moment).  At one point we had two associations because one local a-hole was mad he didn't get elected as president one year, so he started his own organization.  It folded, and he came back as an officer in the main one (and an assignor, using his old association name).

When I started, I was truly an independent contractor.  ALL schools in the area did their own hiring.  Now, between baseball and softball there are four assignors who control all but a few schools' schedules.  Those assignors (save for one who is just getting started) are all officers of the association.  They have fought any notion that the association should get into assigning.  They assign independent of the association so they can get paid for it.  NONE of them work as a true assignor should.  They all umpire also.  Their main interest is in controlling who gets access to the better schools (quality and pay) which is typically . . . them and their inner circles.  I won't keep carrying on about my individual experiences with them.  I will just say that a person cannot truly control their schedule and find their own work when 4 people control access to 99% of the games in the area.

So, when I rail against assignors, that is where I am coming from.  I know y'all's areas are different.

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

Double-post, sorry.

 

[The Man in Blue]

12 hours ago, 834k3r said:

I had a very similar situation just this week. I was on a two-man crew for a 14U travel ball game, and my partner got pulled to work a FED game. I told my assignor I don't want to work solo, and he understood and took the place of my original partner. In my mind, I signed up for the game, so I felt obligated to work the game regardless--but I was happy to have a partner.

 

WHAT?!  Speaking up and holding the line . . . WORKED?!  

NO, that could never happen.

 

(Here is a towel to mop up all the sarcasm I just dripped on your keyboard.) 

[Mudisfun]

On 4/18/2024 at 11:00 PM, tpatience said:

I was/am apart of the same HS umpire association as @Mudisfun. Unfortunately, all freshman/JV games(besides one special league that assigns JV as two man, same league that assigns varsity as 3) are assigned as one man. So if you’re an up and comer as Kevin is in our association, he has to work these one man games or else he’d get way less games. Is it ideal? No. But that’s just the way it is 

So what makes this whole thing more ironic? I was scheduled for the plate between 2 D1 schools, but having been fighting a serious head cold, I asked to be replaced the day prior as I just straight felt like crap. Sadly, we had ZERO available umpires on that day, so I than asked if there was any other ranked D1 guys working a lower level game I could swap out with them, which yes, there happened to be one, so we swapped. I should have just stayed where I was and sucked it up for the varsity game.

 

On 4/18/2024 at 5:00 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

I'm about to have an aneurism just reading all that.  I really don't even know where to begin because there is NOTHING right in any of this.  1 umpire.  1 coach for one of the teams.  No admin.  Freshmen.  This game should never have been played.

You did what you could with the players.  When the parents were involved, the direction should not have been "call an admin" but "coach, you ARE the game administrator, take care of it."

I know many of you don't agree with me, but we HAVE TO STOP ACCEPTING SOLO ASSIGNMENTS.  We have got to start holding schools accountable for having adequate personnel on site.  A single coach and no on site administrator is NOT acceptable.  

 I agree with your sentiment, but if you chose to do HS baseball in Orange County, you do so with the understanding that sub-varsity games will be solo. If you do not agree to those terms then don't agree to do HS. This is the 1st solo and only solo game I will work this season, and only because I swapped out of my 2 man assignment. Does that make it right, or better? No, of course not, but that is the reality. As a group, ALL the umpires in CIF So Cal Southern Section need to band together with CBUA to get better working conditions. Each individual unit is not in a position to negotiate anything with CIF directly.

Most of the freshman and JV teams in the area have 1 coach only, and most often, they are walk-ons. Many of the varsity teams have walk-on, non-school employee HC's as well, although they typically have a couple AC's. The schools are required to have an admin available, but they are not required to be standing at the field all game. At the same time as my game, there was a JV Baseball game happening on the varsity field, a swim meet happening, 2 girls softball games and who knows what else.  

We have been instructed that the HC is NOT the administrator, nor are they expected to be responsible for the fans outside the fence. My directly addressing the fans who were starting to get stupid, I transgressed the direction we have been given by CIF this year that we are NOT to engage with the fans outside the fence. However, based on what was happening, I chose to admonish them which simmered it down long enough for the school to deal with it. 

 

[Mudisfun]

Double posted

 

[beerguy55]

Pragmatically, for an employee model both the system and the economics would have to change.  You'd need an organization that can employ staff in every state (let alone other countries).  Otherwise, now it become problematic for an employee of a Texan firm to officiate in Oklahoma.   

If the umpires work for NFHS, then they can't work for Little League, and so on...without long-winded employer agreements allowing you to have multiple part-time jobs, with an understanding to who your "prime" employer is for conflict resolution.  It'd be a nightmare.

I could see a business case to create a competitive organization where my fairly paid employees are certified to officiate in rulesets XY and Z, with ongoing training, certification, performance reviews, etc, but even if I managed to get away with paying umpires $25/hr (with reimbursements on clothes/equipment and per diems and cents per mile), I'd likely have to charge well over double that to hope to turn any semblance of a profit...and unless I have a monopoly, it ain't happening.

 

Though I would love to start a business called TExas LEague of Tremendous Umps of BaseBall In Excellent Service (TELETUBBIES)

[BLWizzRanger]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Though I would love to start a business called TExas LEague of Tremendous Umps of BaseBall In Excellent Service (TELETUBBIES)

You worked hard for that one.  Much appreciated.

[umpstu]

On 4/18/2024 at 9:02 AM, Mudisfun said:

Freshman level game. R1/R2 and I am working solo. As I turned towards the plate to sweep it, I hear a commotion coming from the 2nd base area, turn around and see R2 and the SS finishing a shove and squaring up. Immediately I'm running towards the scuffle, shouting to knock it off, break it up, etc. Both HC's (3rd base coach) and HTHC (on the 3rd base side) come running out on to the field as well to break it up. 

Eject both players for engaging in a fight 3-3-1 p&q. Turning towards the plate, I see players from the VT out of the dugout, which a loud get back in there or you are all ejected culls the sheep and they all immediately get back inside (no one was running out on to the field, they had just exited the dugout).

I get the replacement player info from the VT (R2) and then head over to the HTHC to get the replacement for his SS when I then observe several adult males outside the fence on the home team side yelling at and attempting to engage/instigate with the VT side of the fence. Tell the HTHC to call an admin now, which he does. Spoke to the AD via phone who was off site, explained the situation and he quickly got someone from admin out to the field to quell the crowds. I may have also told them all that if they did not immediately stop the behavior that I would clear the stands and they would all be going to the parking lot.

By the time the EJ paperwork was done, there was an admin on site and we resumed the game with no further issues. 

Did I mention freshman level? Ugg.

 

Those crazy freshmen. You just never know what they're going to do. Just can't trust them. And at that age Mom and Dad know that MLB and most D1 schools have their top scouts at the game.

[umpstu]

On 4/18/2024 at 5:00 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

I'm about to have an aneurism just reading all that.  I really don't even know where to begin because there is NOTHING right in any of this.  1 umpire.  1 coach for one of the teams.  No admin.  Freshmen.  This game should never have been played.

You did what you could with the players.  When the parents were involved, the direction should not have been "call an admin" but "coach, you ARE the game administrator, take care of it."

I know many of you don't agree with me, but we HAVE TO STOP ACCEPTING SOLO ASSIGNMENTS.  We have got to start holding schools accountable for having adequate personnel on site.  A single coach and no on site administrator is NOT acceptable.  

It's easy to say not to accept 1 man games. But there is a money issue involved concerning the schools. I'm sure they would love to have 2 umpires, but it's just not in the budget. And these kids deserve to have at least one competent umpire.

[umpstu]

On 4/18/2024 at 6:24 PM, JonnyCat said:

I agree with you wholeheartedly!

I NEVER accept solo games, paid or volunteer. Solo games are a big reason the shortage of umpires continues.

Our solution? Lets do more games with less umpires. Oh and still get SH*#ty pay.

They stopped paying for two umpires the year they stopped with school buses down here in the Coachella Valley. Hard to train Jr umpires in 2 man mechanics.

 

[eddieq]

So not NFHS and not baseball.  I'm a softball umpire.  I've talked with a local guy about crossing to the big field a couple of times, but that hasn't materialized with our schedules.

Anyway, by nature of what's available around here, I do a lot of community youth FP and until we get to playoffs, they are entirely solo games.  Last night I had two steal plays at second where I cleared the catcher, came out several steps, and tried to get the best angle, knowing I'd never get the distance.  I made my calls based on what I saw and tried to get it right every time.  I won't "guess" an out so if I'm screened and don't see a tag, I'm not calling the out.

In between innings, a coach is talking about it (not griping AT me, but griping that he didn't get the call that he was sure I kicked).  I engaged for a minute and just said, "Look, I called it from what I could see and I'm doing the best I can to get the calls right.  The remedy is for the league to pay for two umpires and not rely on me calling it from 60+ feet away".  He agreed and thanked me for my candor.  I'm sure we'll start doing two man games tonight in light of that revelation. /sarcasm 

Side note, we called the game due to darkness, absolutely killing a comeback rally by the visitors.  It's a beautiful complex with lots of fields and facilities.  Apparently the township won't authorize field lighting.

[beerguy55]

8 hours ago, umpstu said:

It's easy to say not to accept 1 man games. But there is a money issue involved concerning the schools. I'm sure they would love to have 2 umpires, but it's just not in the budget. And these kids deserve to have at least one competent umpire.

This is not your problem to solve...and it's this viewpoint the decision makers hope you get guilted into making...yeah, those kids deserve better...and their parents can make that decision with their wallets.

You have to let people fail...refuse to ump solo and then the teams will turn to volunteers - and when enough volunteer umps either do a really SH*#ty job...or stop volunteering due to the abuse, decisions will be changed.

In the end, remember that every day kids are playing baseball without coaches, umpires or parents around and they're doing just fine - they're making the close calls and resolving the conflicts...they're keeping score...and they're having fun.

 

[BLWizzRanger]

18 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

In the end, remember that every day kids are playing baseball without coaches, umpires or parents around and they're doing just fine - they're making the close calls and resolving the conflicts...they're keeping score...and they're having fun.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wish it was this way, but, are they?  I can drive around here to 15 fields and there will be no pickup games.  We - my generation - and our culture have taken away the pickup games (basketball, soccer, whiffle ball, etc) because we are afraid to allow our children to play outside by themselves and we have removed where these neighborhood, backyard ad-hoc fields are. Everything is organized now with parents supervising it. We don't let kids be kids anymore. IMHO.  Heck! I was included on some of these neighborhood games because my grandmother would confiscate the balls that found their way into her yard.  I was the only one able to go retrieve them...

We had a whiffle ball fundraiser for my son's baseball team once 5 (?) years ago and you should have seen the younger kids be amazed with what whiffle balls could do as it seemed it was the first time they tried to throw them. 

[JonnyCat]

9 hours ago, umpstu said:

They stopped paying for two umpires the year they stopped with school buses down here in the Coachella Valley. Hard to train Jr umpires in 2 man mechanics.

 

That's an excellent point. In our HS association, all of the new umpires (unless very skilled joining the Association), always work JV/Freshman games solo, for quite a while sometimes, too..

There's almost no OTJ training for them, no feedback, no nothing. The result? Poor mechanics and bad habits. Also, they develop almost no skills on the bases. When they do make the transition to 2 man (if they do, many quit soon after joining for obvious reasons), their base mechanics and positioning are often terrible. Also, if they do end up working games for a few years, then they think they know it all and never seek out additional training. To be fair, our HS association is not very good with requiring training. But you get the idea.

Solo umpiring does almost nothing to help the shortage of umpires.

[JonnyCat]

10 hours ago, umpstu said:

And these kids deserve to have at least one competent umpire.

[wolfe_man]

I'd rather not work than be solo... but I do solo out of necessity a time or two each HS season.  But I despise being solo and genuinely feel for the JV guys that aren't Varsity eligible yet who spend most of their time solo so I try to work some JV just so they can get with a partner once in a while. 

IMHO making new guys work solo is the surest way for them to never stay long-term as an umpire.   Most will find other ways to make money without the added stress of no support.  And those that do stick it out will be as @JonnyCat says with bad habits and not much desire to learn more.

Bad planning/execution breeds bad habits and bad attitudes.

I hear the "don't work solo and force them to change" guys and can agree with them on almost every point - but for how long?  At what point, how may years does it take to affect change, do we see tournaments change and force teams to hire two guys?  I'm afraid the answer is not one that I'm willing to accept.  By the time things change for the better and two umpires becomes the norm again, I'll be long gone from umpiring baseball... if it ever happens. 

[The Man in Blue]

12 hours ago, umpstu said:

It's easy to say not to accept 1 man games. But there is a money issue involved concerning the schools. I'm sure they would love to have 2 umpires, but it's just not in the budget. And these kids deserve to have at least one competent umpire.

There still is a solution.

In my budget for umpires, I can play 32 games at $80/pop with one umpire or I can play 16 games at $80x2/pop the proper way.  I’ll say it again … part of the problem is not enough umpires.  Another part is too many games being played.

I get the budget concern.  I teach at an underserved inner-city school.  I taught for 2 years in Jackson, MS.  I will tell you more money helps, but spending the money you have more responsibly goes further.

Twice as many games with less than half the level of officiating is a net loss for everybody, especially the kids.

 

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

At what point, how may years does it take to affect change, do we see tournaments change and force teams to hire two guys?  I'm afraid the answer is not one that I'm willing to accept.  By the time things change for the better and two umpires becomes the norm again, I'll be long gone from umpiring baseball... if it ever happens. 

This is a problem common to humanity.   If they don't think they'll see the change in their lifetime they don't see the point in affecting the change.   Politicians only ever do things that will show benefit by the next election cycle.  Nobody wants to play the long game, knowing there will be a legacy that might not come to fruition until long after they've turned to dust.

And in most cases, it's our physiology.  Our physiological response for compassion and empathy is measurably stronger the closer we are to the person involved...measurably weaker (or non-existent) the more separation occurs.  Our response when it comes to a complete stranger is identical to the response for our future self...or grandchildren we don't yet have.   We have no empathy for the version of our self that's 30 years older.   It's why so many people fail at saving for retirement.  And why so many people sacrifice long-term potential for short-term realization.

We just have to keep trying to fight through it and do the right thing...even when we know we'll never see the benefit of it.

 

[wolfe_man]

4 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

This is a problem common to humanity.   If they don't think they'll see the change in their lifetime they don't see the point in affecting the change.   Politicians only ever do things that will show benefit by the next election cycle.  Nobody wants to play the long game, knowing there will be a legacy that might not come to fruition until long after they've turned to dust.

And in most cases, it's our physiology.  Our physiological response for compassion and empathy is measurably stronger the closer we are to the person involved...measurably weaker (or non-existent) the more separation occurs.  Our response when it comes to a complete stranger is identical to the response for our future self...or grandchildren we don't yet have.   We have no empathy for the version of our self that's 30 years older.   It's why so many people fail at saving for retirement.  And why so many people sacrifice long-term potential for short-term realization.

We just have to keep trying to fight through it and do the right thing...even when we know we'll never see the benefit of it.

 

I agree it's a need.  I'm just not willing to quit umpiring until they fix the issue - as I truly don't believe it'll get better at all in the long run.  FWIW, I only work solo a few times a year, so I am practicing the "don't work solo unless you absolutely have to" mindset in reality.  I won't take tournament games solo and seldom do it for HS either. 

If we are able to see trends at all in the US, then we'd have to say that the trends we can see do not tend to afford much hope that people will start thinking rationally and use empathy when dealing with sports officials.   Ergo, I humbly submit that there will be an officials shortage for as long as there are amateur sports in America.  This is an issue that quite possibly is not going away in our lifetimes (I'm 45).

[The Short Umpire]

I know what I’m posting will ruffle a lot of feathers. Before you guys jump on me though, just hear me out. 
 

In my area there is effectively zero training for umpires, especially new ones. Umpiring is treated as a “Learn as you go” kind of job. There is no standard for getting to a Varsity level. If you join you will get varsity games your first week. Granted new guys will only work the bases and for the most-part will only be with experienced plate guys. 
 

With that being said, my issues is with the lack of training. In conjunction with the lack of training, there are a lot of umpires who treat umpiring as an income whether primary or supplemental. Because of the mindset of “umpiring=money” a lot of guys around here have little motivation to get better because there is no requirement/incentive to get better. In fact spending the time to get better does nothing but bring their hourly rate down. The unfortunate thing is that a lot of the guys with this mind set get put on varsity games all the time in my area. I understand that the assignors want two guys on the games because that’s what the expectation is from coaches and fans. However, if guys that aren’t ready get put on varsity games just to fulfill the requirement of two umpires then that is a worse disservice to everyone involved than having one solid guy on the game. 
 

If guys who aren’t ready get put on a varsity game then they interpret the assignment as a confirmation that they are “ready” and having nothing to improve on. Guys are being rewarded for sucking just to appease optics. I’ve had more crap start in a game because of an unprepared partner than I’ve ever had working solo. Don’t get me wrong the ideal is two umpires but they need to be up to par before going there. So I agree we should not be working solo and those games should be canceled but just as equally those games should be scheduled with two “competent” umpires. The middle of the games is not the time to train a new guy. So my hot take is, if I ONLY had the two options of solo, or a new guy on a varsity game I’m working that game solo. 

[wolfe_man]

5 hours ago, The Short Umpire said:

So my hot take is, if I ONLY had the two options of solo, or a new guy on a varsity game I’m working that game solo. 

Absolutely accurate comments for my area also.  There are many umpires who have no desire to improve, but they passed the (open book) test and were certified as a Varsity umpire so there's no stopping them now.  They'll do the minimum from here on out with little effort given to look more professional or to learn new tricks to become a better umpire. Our associations are only doing the minimum meetings to keep us active, nothing further. 

I'm basically taking every nickel I'll make this year in HS ball to improve myself and attend a good camp in the fall.  Very few umpires that I know are willing to make this same move.  I'm not saying praise me, but I merely point it out as further proof that what @The Short Umpire is saying is true. Most amateur umpires at the HS level, in my experience, are only doing it for the money.  Sure, they like the game and enjoy the kids - but if it were not paid, then none of us would be there.

I don't know the total answer, because due to the shortage you can't start putting too many requirements on umpires or you'll end up losing more than just the bad ones and be even worse off.  But I think maybe a good place to start is taking our local association more seriously and actually forcing guys to put forth more effort in order to move up and stay on the good games. 

And for Pete's sake, can we please lose the "good ol' boys club" method of rewarding the old-timers with playoff games just because they're still out there calling for their 30th year?  Can we at least make an effort to put the most qualified, complete umpires on the playoff games due to their own merit and nothing else? 

I know, I know... in this day of DE&I initiatives, I'm crazy to think we might actually reward the hardest-working, seeking more training and feedback, and the most-hustling umpires with better games... but it's a thought at least. 

[StatsUmp]

10 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

There's almost no OTJ training for them, no feedback, no nothing. The result? Poor mechanics and bad habits. Also, they develop almost no skills on the bases. When they do make the transition to 2 man (if they do, many quit soon after joining for obvious reasons), their base mechanics and positioning are often terrible. Also, if they do end up working games for a few years, then they think they know it all and never seek out additional training. To be fair, our HS association is not very good with requiring training. But you get the idea.

When I was in my early years in softball and baseball, I appreciated partners who took the time to give me constructive feedback between or after games. Even if I silently disagreed with what they offered, it at least got me thinking about how to improve for the next game.

With that in mind, I agree with @JonnyCat that throwing rookies to the wolves by having them work solo does them no good in terms of learning the basics they need to be successful both on the plate and on the bases. As much as the ideal is no games worked solo, it makes more sense to have someone who knows what they're doing work those games so the rookies get the important peer feedback they need to avoid discouragement, burnout, and - perhaps most importantly - dropping out.

 

10 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Solo umpiring does almost nothing to help the shortage of umpires.

The reality is it's a short term solution to the long-term problem of not having enough umpires to go around.

 

5 hours ago, The Short Umpire said:

In my area there is effectively zero training for umpires, especially new ones. Umpiring is treated as a “Learn as you go” kind of job. There is no standard for getting to a Varsity level. If you join you will get varsity games your first week. Granted new guys will only work the bases and for the most-part will only be with experienced plate guys. 

This was my experience in both diamond sports. My softball debut was a low-level varsity doubleheader and I had two varsity games on the bases my rookie year of baseball.

Pre-COVID, my association's trainers would offer a pre-season session for new and newer basketball officials presenting the basis of two-person mechanics. No such thing has ever existed for the diamond sports. When someone asked years ago, I believe an officer cited lack of interested officials which is a shame because rookies need the chance to start their careers on the right foot by being exposed to the basics. Not everyone can learn what they need to know by themselves on the fly. My region is lucky to have a good weekend baseball camp in the winter, but if an up and coming umpire doesn't know about it or has a schedule conflict that weekend, they have few if any alternatives.