Touches of Third

[RBIbaseball]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is by default PU has all touches of third. If the BU has nothing left to look at (ie last runner on the bases rounding 3B) then of course BU might as well look, but would the appeal be his call now, or is it still PU responsibility first?

 

Obviously in a two-man system there can be some chaos and multiple things going on at once where you can't see a touch. What are the exceptions here where the PU would go to BU as the primary appeal authority of a touch of 3B?

 

Would the PU ever direct the appeal straight to the BU, or would it be more of a "let's get together" situation?

[Biscuit]

5 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is by default PU has all touches of third. If the BU has nothing left to look at (ie last runner on the bases rounding 3B) then of course BU might as well look, but would the appeal be his call now, or is it still PU responsibility first?

 

Obviously in a two-man system there can be some chaos and multiple things going on at once where you can't see a touch. What are the exceptions here where the PU would go to BU as the primary appeal authority of a touch of 3B?

 

Would the PU ever direct the appeal straight to the BU, or would it be more of a "let's get together" situation?

Off the top of my head, the only time I can think of where it's for sure U1's touch is the BR on a HR. However, this is kinda a use common sense situation. Like, lets say theres a throw to third that gets by the third baseman, and the defense wants to appeal that the runner missed third after going home on the over throw. U1 should be closing down on that play (how much depends on the other action on the field), so that would clearly be his touch. If you got a good look at a touch and are sure, when you see the appeal happening, communicate with your partner. "John, I've got this appeal". Everyone can (arguably should) hear that. They now know that you know what's happening, and you know what happened. Honestly, I'd rather U1 takes that touch if it's resonable. He can make up ground and be more credible. 

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is by default PU has all touches of third. If the BU has nothing left to look at (ie last runner on the bases rounding 3B) then of course BU might as well look, but would the appeal be his call now, or is it still PU responsibility first?

 

Obviously in a two-man system there can be some chaos and multiple things going on at once where you can't see a touch. What are the exceptions here where the PU would go to BU as the primary appeal authority of a touch of 3B?

 

Would the PU ever direct the appeal straight to the BU, or would it be more of a "let's get together" situation?

Evans had PU have all touches of 3B except the batter-runner and that's what I brief. What else is the BU going to be doing if the B-R is at or passing 3B?

[MadMax]

When I’m working or developing umpires, and answering this question about touch responsibilities, I refer to the (real, NOT the Fed way of doing it (past)) 2-man mechanics. On a clean base hit to the outfield (likely to the wall), who has BR to 3B? 
BU. 

Yes, I’m aware that Fed cheats this, and directs PU to go to(wards) 3B so as to accommodate a BU who is physically challenged to do so. 

My opinion holds that this should be an option, not a direction. If I’ve got a BU partner (singular) who can’t make it to 3B from A, then how much of an a$$#0L3 would I be to say, “Tough luck, Frank, the manual says you’ve got to get to 3B.”?? Big big. 

So with that said, and under typical operating parameters, the BU has the BR to 3B. Thus, the same holds on a multi-base hit or HR with nobody on as it does when there are runners aboard – the BU has the BRs touch at 3B. 

If I’m PU, and there’s a live ball appeal of the touch of 3B, I look right at my BU to adjudicate that. If I’m BU, I look right at my PU, and either say, “I’ve got this Donnie (or whoever)”, and/or tap my chest, and judge accordingly. If this is done during a dead-ball appeal alá Fed, then I verbally convey that this is BU’s call, and BU judges accordingly. 

[Velho]

Clarification question as someone one who does 99% little field: in 2-man on big field, PU has 3B touches as discussed above but BU still has all plays  at 3B, correct?

[MadMax]

21 minutes ago, Velho said:

in 2-man on big field, PU has 3B touches as discussed above but BU still has all plays  at 3B, correct?

Yes and no. 

R1 only. PU and BU signal respective rotation of, on a base hit to the outfield (I’m not going to discuss batted balls on the infield, of which the three rules codes have 3 differing directions for PU to go), PU takes the R1 – and any play upon him – at 3B. 

R1 and R3. Same as above, but an addendum is present with 2-outs (and a 3-2 count especially). PU can “opt out” and remain at plate, because the likelihood of R1 continuing to plate is much higher than any other scenario. 

R1, R2, < 2 outs. Double tag rotation. Fly ball to outfield, _caught_. PU should rotate to 3B and take the play upon R2 if he should tag and attempt an advance. If ball is not caught, promptly terminate the rotation and recover to plate. 

Let’s see if I can address what I think your question is also inquiring about… 

So I had a play situation wherein I had multiple responsibilities occurring in rapid sequence. R2 only, 1 out. Hump-backed liner to F7… so I’ve got catch/no-catch responsibility. F7 attempts a scoop, bobbles, has the ball pop-tart on him, and R2 decides to make a break for it… so I have a potential play to 3B. R2 touches and rounds 3B, but I cannot abandon him, because I might have a back-pick to 3B, and that’s my play on him. While this is happening, an internal timer goes off in my head – developed over years of being a catcher and umpire – and I steal a glance over my right shoulder to see BR touch 1B. The throw went to plate. Now, here’s where we break this down… 

If R2 had continued to HP, and been judged Safe, and the defense appealed his (potential) touch of 3B, who has it (as primary responsibility)? PU. 

Who (potentially) saw it, too? BU (me). If PU asks me, I would have judged accordingly. 

If F2 had snapped off a throw back to F5, and made a play upon R2, who has it? BU (me). 

Lest we forget… if BR had continued on to 2B, got in safely, and defense appealed BR’s touch at 1B, who has it? Yup… BU. It is important (I can’t say imperative, because even HWUS concedes that the priority is the ball, and the plays upon runners; base touches are lower on the list) that the BU keeps his head on a swivel, and processes the play – all the components of it – in a hierarchal order. There’s no time nor tolerance for just standing out there with your hands in your pockets like a nonchalant statue. 

FWIW, we had an ex-MLBU out evaluating our game, and between innings, he approached me and led with, “You were a former player, right?” “Yeah, A, I was. Catcher.” “You can tell. How’d you know to look over your shoulder to watch the touch from over there?” “I watched BR out of the box. Started a timer in my head.” “Yeah, that’s the way to do it. Book-trained umpires don’t think to do that. Nice job.” 👍🏼 

[Velho]

Thank @MadMax for the detail explanation and patience.

9 minutes ago, MadMax said:

R1 only. PU and BU signal respective rotation ...

R1 and R3. Same as above...

R1, R2, < 2 outs. Double tag rotation. ...

We do the same on the little field. I was being too simplistic. Appreciate you clarifying those situations.

 

11 minutes ago, MadMax said:

If F2 had snapped off a throw back to F5, and made a play upon R2, who has it? BU (me). 

This is where my concern was. I didn't want someone reading this thread confusing "PU has touch of third" with "BU has no responsibility at third". 

 

11 minutes ago, MadMax said:

“I watched BR out of the box. Started a timer in my head.” “Yeah, that’s the way to do it. Book-trained umpires don’t think to do that. Nice job.” 👍🏼 

Adding that one to the toolbox. Very slick.

[Thunderheads]

18 hours ago, MadMax said:

FWIW, we had an ex-MLBU out evaluating our game, and between innings, he approached me and led with, “You were a former player, right?” “Yeah, A, I was. Catcher.” “You can tell. How’d you know to look over your shoulder to watch the touch from over there?” “I watched BR out of the box. Started a timer in my head.” “Yeah, that’s the way to do it. Book-trained umpires don’t think to do that. Nice job.” 👍🏼 

I always try to take a peak at runners touches of 3rd (IF I CAN)  

[wolfe_man]

3 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

I always try to take a peak at runners touches of 3rd (IF I CAN)  

Likewise. I make it a habit to look.  I try to never assume my assigned partner is where he is supposed to be or looking where he is supposed to look, so I look to try and avoid embarrassment as a crew.

For this reason, a Varsity game this past Saturday.  R2 and R3, fly ball to RF (I'm in C, ball is in the V - so it's my call). I get the out, then turn my head to look over shoulder to see if R3 left early (he's okay) all while I'm moving towards 2B in case there is a play to be made there (throw went home to try to get R3 though). 

Then, HC of offensive team comes out and asks if he left early and my partner (PU) turns and looks at me from behind home plate (he never moved).  I start to signal safe, so he mirrors me. 

And that's why I try to look every time I can.  Never assume that your partner is doing what he should be.  Be prepared to help out at any point (if you're able, in 2 man there are times you just can't help but do your job and hope your partner is doing theirs).

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

I always try to take a peak at runners touches of 3rd (IF I CAN)  

Likewise, in the OP (and similar circumstances), PU should be sneaking a peek at BR touching first.

[Richvee]

48 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

For this reason, a Varsity game this past Saturday.  R1 and R3, fly ball to RF (I'm in C

“C”? 

[Jimurray]

51 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Likewise. I make it a habit to look.  I try to never assume my assigned partner is where he is supposed to be or looking where he is supposed to look, so I look to try and avoid embarrassment as a crew.

For this reason, a Varsity game this past Saturday.  R1 and R3, fly ball to RF (I'm in C, ball is in the V - so it's my call). I get the out, then turn my head to look over shoulder to see if R3 left early (he's okay) all while I'm moving towards 2B in case R1 decides to move up.  Then, HC of offensive team comes out and asks if he left early and my partner (PU) turns and looks at me from behind home plate (he never moved).  I start to signal safe, so he mirrors me. 

And that's why I try to look every time I can.  Never assume that your partner is doing what he should be.  Be prepared to help out at any point (if you're able, in 2 man there are times you just can't help but do your job and hope your partner is doing theirs).

I'm wondering if your mechanics system gives you a choice between "B" and "C"? I'm also wondering if you glanced at your primary responsibility, R1 tagging or not. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

21 hours ago, MadMax said:

If I’m PU, and there’s a live ball appeal of the touch of 3B, I look right at my BU to adjudicate that. If I’m BU, I look right at my PU, and either say, “I’ve got this Donnie (or whoever)”, and/or tap my chest, and judge accordingly. If this is done during a dead-ball appeal alá Fed, then I verbally convey that this is BU’s call, and BU judges accordingly. 

This...is very, very good umpiring here. Yes, there are understood responsibilities. Things happen...people fall down...touches get missed. This mechanic here accounts for that and makes the crew look totally professional on what might be an unusual situation. If you are not doing this, pre-game this and do it.

 

1 hour ago, wolfe_man said:

Likewise. I make it a habit to look.  I try to never assume my assigned partner is where he is supposed to be or looking where he is supposed to look, so I look to try and avoid embarrassment as a crew.

And this...know your primary on every play and...if you can secure your primary AND get the touch...get the touch, too.

~Dawg

[wolfe_man]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

I'm wondering if your mechanics system gives you a choice between "B" and "C"? I'm also wondering if you glanced at your primary responsibility, R1 tagging or not. 

Good question and I misspoke. When we have runners at 1st and 3rd, so we're in B (not C).  Once the runner moves up to 2nd, then I'd move over to C.   I knew something sounded off earlier, but was in a hurry and didn't re-read it and I should have.

But yes, I made sure of the catch, glimpsed towards 1B to see if R1 was tagging up (fly to shallow/medium right-center, so I didn't expect an attempt at R1 moving up to 2B), then head was on a swivel over to 3B to see if he'd tagged-up (runner was only a few steps from the base, so I was assured he had not left early).  I also then picked up the ball coming back into the infield and that the throw was going home, so I wouldn't have a play at third (unless R3 breaks off attempt of home and returns to 3B). All of this happened in less than 5 seconds of course. 

I've found good listening skills also help you to umpire.  There are verbal queues we can use to help us determine what's happening, where players are, etc.  While they are not fully dependable, they do sometimes offer valuable information.

[wolfe_man]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

“C”? 

See above in my reply to Mr. Jim Murray. I misspoke and it's completely my error.  "C" is the grade I achieved for the comment.  It was an average comment, not of any particularly great or stand-out ability.

I would have been in B in that situation.  So, either I remember incorrectly and runners were R2 and R3 - or I was in B, not C there.  Regardless, sorry for the confusion.