Desert (Lab) Rats

[MadMax]

Since we have our state’s Rules Interpreter on the NFHS Rules Committee, he has volunteered Arizona to be the Guinea pig 🐹 (more like lab rat 🐀) on trying out potential Rules adjustments (enhancements). Last year, we applied the 20-sec Action Clock, similar to the NCAA Action Clock, only lacking the charged Offensive conference if a Batter requests Time; likewise, there wasn’t a charged reset to the pitcher for stepping off. Instead, the BU was to tell the pitcher “Clock’s still running”. More often than not, the pitcher would still have adequate time to re-engage, come set, and pitch. Conversely, if his act of stepping off and faking (as to 2B) was judged to be sufficient play to cause the runner to return to the base, then the BU would reset the clock. 

Yes, it sounds a bit half-baked. But, we didn’t have the NCAA version codified into NFHS for us, and it worked satisfactorily for us for the entire season, including playoffs. 

Where we really “got after it” was the between-innings clock, which we set at 90 seconds. What’s (annoyingly) curious, is NFHS has had it codified at 60 seconds for several years, but never had enforced it! The vast majority of the coaches acquiesced to it, and we only penalized the most blatant of transgressors. It really sped up our games, definitively. 

Now this year, we’ve added two whoppers. The first is mound visits (Defensive Conferences), wherein we allow 6 total, with 3 of them involving a/the coach. This is just like NCAA. 

The second one? … 🥁 🥁 🥁… 

Balks are (or can be) Live. Balk is called, pitch is hit for a 2-run HR, the HR stands. With R1, and 3-X count, Balk is called on Ball 4, then the pitch stands as called. With R2 (only), and 3-X count, Balk is called on Ball 4, then the Balk penalty is imposed; R2 is awarded 3B, and Batter continues with count at TOP. 

Fun! 

Yes, we are the first through the wall. We are confidently and eagerly anticipating results that will hopefully inspire the Fed to change this millstone of a rule. 

[Richvee]

From someone who works both levels, I can attest these rules are sorely needed in high school ball. Defensive conferences number one. 20 second action clock #2. . I could live the NCAA 120 seconds between innings. 60 seconds is unrealistic and probably the reason it’s not enforced. For the twenty second clock, I’m surprised to hear you think it was smooth. Seems to me there’s  too many situations not covered by FED as to when to start, restart, keep the clock running. Putting judgment into  “effective step offs” sounds problematic. Did batters have 10 seconds to be ready to hit?  What were you doing with batters requests for time?  Granting and restarting? What happens to the clock after that? 
I’d  be surprised if this ever filtered into national FED rules, though personally love it. I just see too many of the “I’ve been umpiring high school ball for 20 years and I have one navy shirt” guys that might have just a little trouble adjusting. 

[johnnyg08]

Our state would struggle with a lot of these gymnastics and they're not needed with proper game management from the umpires. I would not be in favor of more trips. How the rule reads now is plenty. 

Any sort of official clock would not be something I would be in favor of either. IF I was forced to pick one, the between inning clock would be fine. 

I noticed that the Fed did add 20 seconds to the between inning rule...it now sits at 1 minute, 20 seconds. 

 

[Richvee]

11 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I would not be in favor of more trips. How the rule reads now is plenty.

It would be curbing catchers jumping out to the mound 12-15 times a game. It’s rampant here. This would limit non coach visits. 

[MadMax]

13 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I would not be in favor of more trips. How the rule reads now is plenty. 

 

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

It would be curbing catchers jumping out to the mound 12-15 times a game. It’s rampant here

This is exactly what it’s doing. To reiterate, it’s six (6) visits, total. Coaches are still limited to (no more than) three (3). That didn’t change. So, too, we didn’t install the limitation that on the 2nd coach visit of an inning, he has to replace the F1. That didn’t change either. 

Instead, this does limit the F2 asking for time incessantly to go out there and whisper sweet nothings in the ear of his pitcher. Or, worse, the F6. What can a F6 say in private to a pitcher that can’t be said at 25-30 feet? What, “Deep breath, let’s go baby”?? 

The team gets six… for the game (yes, additional for extra innings)… just like college. 

[MadMax]

13 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I noticed that the Fed did add 20 seconds to the between inning rule...it now sits at 1 minute, 20 seconds.

That was because of us. 

Our RI brought our 2023 results to the Fed board… who got all up in arms about how we didn’t do 60 seconds as codified, but instead 90 seconds. We defended it as 60 being wholly inadequate (and it is), and that college and pro ball is 120 seconds. 

… 

 
… 

In classic committee fashion, they set it to 80 seconds. 

[johnnyg08]

22 minutes ago, MadMax said:

That was because of us. 

Our RI brought our 2023 results to the Fed board… who got all up in arms about how we didn’t do 60 seconds as codified, but instead 90 seconds. We defended it as 60 being wholly inadequate (and it is), and that college and pro ball is 120 seconds. 

… 

 
… 

In classic committee fashion, they set it to 80 seconds. 

I love it. It cuts it pretty close, but IMO it's plenty of time. If on a polygraph, I would say that the one minute was not enough time. I love that it's just a little longer at 80

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

That was because of us. 

Our RI brought our 2023 results to the Fed board… who got all up in arms about how we didn’t do 60 seconds as codified, but instead 90 seconds. We defended it as 60 being wholly inadequate (and it is), and that college and pro ball is 120 seconds. 

… 

 
… 

In classic committee fashion, they set it to 80 seconds. 

That works for me if you’re gonna say “last warmup and throw it down at 80. If you’re looking for pitcher on the rubber, batter alert and in the box at 80 that’s a bit much IMO. 

[ousafe]

If it's 80 seconds from last out to the next pitch, it's simply the 60 between innings (play!) and then pitcher has 20 seconds to deliver said pitch. Seems like no change. What am I missing?

[BigBlue4u]

18 hours ago, MadMax said:

Where we really “got after it” was the between-innings clock, which we set at 90 seconds. What’s (annoyingly) curious, is NFHS has had it codified at 60 seconds for several years, but never had enforced it! The vast majority of the coaches acquiesced to it, and we only penalized the most blatant of transgressors. It really sped up our games, definitively. 

I definitely agree with the 90 second between-innings clock.  I have timed the between-innings interval for several games so far this year, and none has been close to one minute.  On several occasions, the catcher was out there, but the pitcher arrived at the mound at 40 seconds.  In one game, it timed out to 2:45 a couple of times.  And this was not because the catcher was a base runner or batter on the third out.  In California, our umpires use the one minute + 20 seconds for the batter as a very loose guideline and as long as teams do not obviously abuse the rule, we are OK.

[kylehutson]

Kansas does have the base umpire carry a stopwatch to measure 1 minute between innings. But we don't start it until the last fielder crosses the foul line on the way back to the dugout. There are exceptions for pitcher or catcher, but in the case of the catcher, if they're at time they only get 2 more warmups (since they should have a sub or coach out to catch for the pitcher). And we don't really have a penalty except the home plate umpire telling them time's up and refusing further warmups.

This was started maybe 5-7 years ago? And it has helped speed up the game.

[The Man in Blue]

On 3/6/2024 at 11:19 PM, johnnyg08 said:

I noticed that the Fed did add 20 seconds to the between inning rule...it now sits at 1 minute, 20 seconds. 

 

Not new.  We discussed it here before.  60 seconds between innings + the 20 seconds to deliver ANY pitch = 80 seconds.

[johnnyg08]

On 3/7/2024 at 11:00 AM, Richvee said:

It would be curbing catchers jumping out to the mound 12-15 times a game. It’s rampant here. This would limit non coach visits. 

12-15x per game?!?!?!

Yeah, that's absurd. 

[johnnyg08]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:48 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Not new.  We discussed it here before.  60 seconds between innings + the 20 seconds to deliver ANY pitch = 80 seconds.

I don't dispute what you're writing, but it is a change in the rule that used to read one minute. 

[johnnyg08]

On 3/7/2024 at 12:45 PM, MadMax said:

That was because of us. 

Our RI brought our 2023 results to the Fed board… who got all up in arms about how we didn’t do 60 seconds as codified, but instead 90 seconds. We defended it as 60 being wholly inadequate (and it is), and that college and pro ball is 120 seconds. 

… 

 
… 

In classic committee fashion, they set it to 80 seconds. 

We don't do TV ads so 120 is way too much for nfhs baseball. 

A full four minutes added on to each inning is 28 minutes. That would be enough for me to hang it up. 

[Richvee]

22 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

We don't do TV ads so 120 is way too much for nfhs baseball. 

A full four minutes added on to each inning is 28 minutes. That would be enough for me to hang it up. 

That's fuzzy math. You're already using 2:40 per inning.  making it 120 seconds is only adding 80 seconds per inning. That's less than 10 minutes added. 

And 120 means Batter in the box and pitcher ready to throw at 120. If you're getting that done in 80 seconds with  HS kids, congratulations. 

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

We don't do TV ads so 120 is way too much for nfhs baseball. 

A full four minutes added on to each inning is 28 minutes. That would be enough for me to hang it up. 

NAIA is 5th year HS / College Lite, and we do 2:00 (120 seconds) for that… and if you find a televised-with-ads broadcast of NAIA, then you can call me a codfish. 

With NFHS participants, we need an impetus. We need both umpires and coaches & players operating under that impetus. We thought for sure that the small schools (9-11 kids on the roster) would be our biggest sources of friction; quite the contrary, it’s the big powerhouse schools, with certain types of coaches & players on their rosters that actually seek to cause friction. An example? One of the biggest HS’s in the state, 9-time state champions, multiple MLB draft picks, and this pitcher refuses to leave the dugout to warm up for the next half-inning until his catcher is ready and comes out with him. And, don’t you know who I am, Blue? I need my 5 warmup pitches. 

I need that latitude to say, “I don’t care who you are, you’ve got (90) seconds. If you get in three throws, tough cookies, let’s go.” And if he wants to defy me, I add a ball to the count. And if that HC wants to look at me like I’ve grown eight heads (“Hail Hydra!”), then I can simply say, “That’s the rules Arizona is using, Skip.” 

Yes, we need consistent enforcement across all umpires. I had an old salty veteran who, at our plate meeting, said to the two-ex-Minor-League-players-turned-HS-coaches standing betwixt us, “Yeah, that timing and clock crap? I don’t use it!”… to which I interjected (had to!) with my trusty stopwatch in hand and said to the shocked coaches, “Gentlemen. I have the timepiece right here, and it applies to this game. 20 second pitch clock, 90 seconds (at that time) between… get ‘em going.” 

Honestly, the biggest source of delay comes from umpires allowing the players to fart around and take too long, and substitutions being registered by the PU from a coach who has waited 75 seconds to bring them up. 

[johnnyg08]

3 hours ago, Richvee said:

That's fuzzy math. You're already using 2:40 per inning.  making it 120 seconds is only adding 80 seconds per inning. That's less than 10 minutes added. 

And 120 means Batter in the box and pitcher ready to throw at 120. If you're getting that done in 80 seconds with  HS kids, congratulations. 

We're usually pretty close. Close enough for me to not have to carry a stop watch. 

The last thing I want to carry is a stopwatch that I don't really need. 

Something I like about the Fed game is that it's not college. 

I understand that other parts of the country are different and as a result the NFHS states that they can implement rules to speed up their games. 

 

[johnnyg08]

Just now, MadMax said:

Honestly, the biggest source of delay comes from umpires allowing the players to fart around and take too long, and substitutions being registered by the PU from a coach who has waited 75 seconds to bring them up. 

This. 100% this. 

[johnnyg08]

3 hours ago, Richvee said:

That's fuzzy math.

It's not that fuzzy. Take that along with unnecessary granting of time to batters gobbles up a half hour...easy. 

[concertman1971]

80-90 between innings for HS should be MORE than enough to get ready, throw 5 + one to 2nd. Personally, I would LOVE to see FED introduce the visit rule. That is the one that slows the HS game down IMO. F2 walks 10' in front of plate after a GB to F6 and turns around and asks for 'time' as he walks to the mound. Limit the number of times he can do that and we probably save 15 min per game.

[MadMax]

8 minutes ago, concertman1971 said:

Personally, I would LOVE to see FED introduce the visit rule.

As mentioned above, we’re doing that here in Arizona, too. We’ve got most youths conditioned upon, while on offense, not asking for time on every base hit, or advancing a base. Similarly, on defense, we’ve got them fairly well conditioned on not asking for time to throw the ball back in from middle INF to F1. The key component? Umpires with the fortitude to say, “No.” 

Now, that next hurdle is to make these visits count, or cost something. Then they’ll stop doing it. 
F6 – “Time, please?” 
U – “For?” *** 
F6 – “I wanna talk to him (F1)” 

U – “Sure, but it will cost a visit.” 
F6 – “It will? How many do we get?” 
U – “Six. Your team has already used four.” 
F6 – “Oh. Eh, that’s okay. Don’t need it.” <throws ball to F1> “C’mon baby! Deep breath****, you got this!” 

Communication has a “U” in it, fellas. 

*** – The most important thing to say instead of “Time!”. Keep the ball Live as much as possible. 

**** – One of the lamest bits of “motivational advice” I hear in amateur baseball. 

[ArchAngel72]

"sits here and chuckles in LL"

 

It all starts at the 8-10 level with us pushing these kids to keep moving, and thankfully LL now allowing coaches to catch to warm up a pitcher.

 

Ty to all the LL umpires who push kids to keep the games moving.

 

[umpstu]

On 3/7/2024 at 12:54 PM, Richvee said:

That works for me if you’re gonna say “last warmup and throw it down at 80. If you’re looking for pitcher on the rubber, batter alert and in the box at 80 that’s a bit much IMO. 

Needs to be 120 seconds between innings. 

[johnnyg08]

8 hours ago, umpstu said:

Needs to be 120 seconds between innings. 

Nah. No need. 

Five throws? 

80-90 is plenty. 

Back when I was working a heavy NCAA schedule...we rarely got close to 90 in between innings. 

Honestly asking....why the additional 30 seconds?