Folks yelling and batter running to first when NOT actually an uncaught third strike (intentionally or accidentally)

[Tog Gee]

I am not asserting anything should be done differently here. Just posting a topic for thoughts because I've seen it so many times and it smells like interference. In my mind I am primarily pondering this concept in regards to youth ball.

Sometimes a batter will run to first on a (seemingly) uncaught third strike (OTS?) when first is occupied and less than 2 outs. Sometimes they run on an uncaught strike 2.

As we've discussed before, some youth teams may try this on purpose with runners on to get a wild throw to right field and maybe even a snowball fight.

Sometimes mayhem ensues when the catcher makes the wild throw. 2 runs could score easily.

And as discussed in other posts, the defensive team should know what the situation is and NOT make a throw to first if there's no force there. Perhaps there's also a R1 and R2 advancing at the same time as the 'fake' uncaught 3rd, in which case a throw to nab the runner third would be preferred.

Yet often in youth baseball, when MANY folks on the offensive side start (incorrectly) screaming "RUN!" to the batter, the catcher often gets caught up in the moment. I know the umpire can be loud and clear that the batter is OUT, and that helps, but is there potentially another treatment? I think intentionally running to first when not an uncaught dropped third should be penalized. If you can determine it was a tactic. Two pertinent rules below.

 

 

2.21.1

Offensive interference is an act (physical running or verbal yelling 'RUN') by the team at bat:
a. which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder
attempting to make a play;

 

3.3.1

f. (shall not) commit any unsportsmanlike act to include, but not limited to,

     4. behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play;

 

[Tborze]

It’s difficult to determine intent based on an individual’s thoughts. Especially in youth ball where it is easier to teach them to just run vs the intricacies of the rule. 
IMO the D has the advantage when this occurs. 
Running the bases in and of itself cannot be INT.  What did he INT with?  
I would not classify this sit with the two rules you quoted. 

An example to 2.2.11: Watch out”, “I got it”. 

”3.3.1: Yelling “balk” during delivery.  

Strike’em out throw’em out!  


 

[noumpere]

Part of the role of youth ball is to have the players learn.  If you kill it, they won't learn.  Leave it live once and they learn.  The only cost is being a bit sad during the post-game ice cream.

 

And, if the players are of such a young age that they can't learn, then the local rules shouldn't have the D3K rule anyway.

[beerguy55]

The bottom line is, the players need to know the rule.  If that catcher knows the rule, he's not throwing.  Period.

I remember my twelve year old self, as a batter who just k'd with a runner on first, after being told to "run" by the fence yelling back "someone's on first, learn the rules".

I don't think U3K should be in place much younger than that age group (same with IFF)....there's frankly no reason for it...the purpose for the rule (ie. protecting the offense) is a tremendously low risk at those age/skill levels.

 

On the intent side...you're picking up a SH*#burger on that one.  Yes, if you look really hard you could find a rule...maybe....to justify doing something if you are absolutely positively 100% certain this was a planned trick (and anything less you keep your mouth shut)...but you're opening a can of worms.

 

This is a far different scenario than a baserunner yelling "I got it" as he nears a fielder tracking an easy fly ball, or someone yelling "balk".

Another example - 

R1, nobody out...I'm F9...batter hits a sinking liner to me...I KNOW I can't catch it, but seeing R1 starting to advance to second I scream "I got it! I got it!"...R1 freezes, and I get a clean hop and throw him out at second to make the force.

You telling me I've violated the rules for confusing/tricking the other team?

Yes, you're not allowed to make a fake tag - that is a safety rule...but you're allowed to slap your glove to fake a catch...and you're allowed to make it look like you're tracking a fly ball.  You're allowed to make it look like you didn't catch a ball, or you don't know where the ball is.

Be careful going down the "fair play" rabbit hole.  Especially in scenarios where the remedy to the situation is simply knowing the rules.   There is legal deception and illegal deception.  The rulebook covers the latter.   Anything else and you're making it about you.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Toggy, I don't think the two rules you cited are applicable in this case. I think the rule that could be applied is NFHS rule 7-3-1, the batter's box rule. Apparently the FED thinks the batter's box rule is important because there are several case plays dealing with it (7.3.1 situations A-I).

One of these case plays is similar to your scenario (7.3.1 Situation F). In the case play a batter runs on a pitch he mistakenly thinks is ball 4. In the play the umpire can call a penalty strike if he thinks the batter has delayed the game. 

And to a lesser extent, another relevant rule would be 8-1-1 which lists the ways a batter becomes a runner. Of course, running on wrong counts is not one of those.

[Tog Gee]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Be careful going down the "fair play" rabbit hole.  Especially in scenarios where the remedy to the situation is simply knowing the rules.   There is legal deception and illegal deception.  The rulebook covers the latter.   Anything else and you're making it about you.

Just taking a peek into the hole here and certainly not trying to make it about me.

Over-competitive adults sometimes exploit  less experienced players and teams with tactics that only work at that age. I'm not a purist, but I think the kids should just play ball.

I saw a 12U coach allow his defense to try a hidden ball trick while winning 27 to 0. Perfectly legal. I wouldn't make a call (other than the balk that did occur). But I would encourage coach later on to think that one through.

I wouldn't enforce those two rules I listed in the OP, I was just pondering this concept and looking for feedback.

[GiantEngineer]

49 minutes ago, Toggy said:

Over-competitive adults sometimes exploit  less experienced players and teams with tactics that only work at that age.

That is sadly just part of the game. Unless it is against a rule, there is not much you can do without directly addressing the coach (which often is not the best way to go)

[maven]

22 hours ago, Toggy said:

I think intentionally running to first when not an uncaught dropped third should be penalized.

There's your problem right there.

16 hours ago, Toggy said:

I saw a 12U coach allow his defense to try a hidden ball trick while winning 27 to 0. Perfectly legal. I wouldn't make a call (other than the balk that did occur). But I would encourage coach later on to think that one through.

Yeah, I might call time and clean the plate (or base, if BU, which I NEVER do) if I saw that one setting up.

But I wound't say anything to the coach—think that one through? Do you think that appeals to this chap's sense of sportsmanship are likely to work? He's using that game to practice his tricks. He doesn't care what you think.

[flyingron]

By the way, since we're in the mode of "educating" young players.   The following is an analysis of how this rule came into being:

https://sabr.org/journal/article/the-dropped-third-strike-the-life-and-times-of-a-rule/

 

[Tog Gee]

2 hours ago, maven said:

Yeah, I might call time and clean the plate (or base, if BU, which I NEVER do) if I saw that one setting up.

But I wouldn't say anything to the coach—think that one through? Do you think that appeals to this chap's sense of sportsmanship are likely to work? He's using that game to practice his tricks. He doesn't care what you think.

I like that clean the plate idea.

I think the coach was not very experienced and I can be persuasive in a pretty positive way. He needed 2 cents from someone.

[beerguy55]

19 hours ago, Toggy said:

I saw a 12U coach allow his defense to try a hidden ball trick while winning 27 to 0. Perfectly legal. I wouldn't make a call (other than the balk that did occur). But I would encourage coach later on to think that one through.

If there's an avenue to do so I'd report it to the league...if for no other reason than just simply giving them a heads up that this coach is going to get punched in the face - by another coach, or a parent.    When I'm up 27-0 I'm going station to station, not bunting, not stealing, swinging at ball four, not advancing on passed balls/wild pitches/overthrows, etc, etc.  And certainly no trick, or unconventional, plays of any kind.  When I'm down 27-0 I'm looking for similar - not necessarily all of it - from other coaches...my reaction could range from confrontation, to petty revenge at a future game.

The league, at this level, should be encouraging not only sportsmanship, but also learning as a priority, from their coaches - and they should be receptive to complaints about it, especially from umpires who not only see it first hand, but have an impartial slant on it.  (as opposed to the coach whose team just got embarrassed)

Teaching kids hidden ball tricks is not how they learn to play the game.  Yes, they can be fun...and once in a blue moon they work...but if you're focusing any practice time on this over the fundamentals, at this age, you're not a "coach".