LLWS 2023

[Thunderheads]

Ok, I know, I know .... no bashing umpires, bad, bad, bad, I know, I know.  Just some observations:

1. Mechanics look a little different this year (that I've noticed).  The 'time/foul' mechanic is like a 'double-handed stop sign' held straight out front, hands close together.  Looks weird.   Is this taught?  (I don't know, I don't do LL).

2. The whole 'safety' thing for LL is quite funny.  When you look at the buckets the catchers are wearing, and their 'required' throat guards as attached are about as robust as a broken screen door in a tornado  

2. Tracy (female) did a really nice job on the dish in game 1 yesterday (I think it was game 1).  Consistent on the corners, not expanding the zone too much.  Had to deal with catchers not receiving the ball very well, but I guess that's LL for you  

3.  These are what, 10-12 year olds?  Your zone must be aligned with the age group, etc, I get it.  And I think for the most part, its' been done pretty well.  This one, however, might be stretching the zone just a little too much  

[834k3r]

That PU has the same stance as a few I've seen. What stands out to me is 1) how far behind the catcher he is, and; 2) how upright he is. When I do a LL game, my knees hate me, because I'm getting down to the strike zone for a better look. In my mind--and the vultures can correct me if I'm wrong--if this particular PU is going to practically stand up, he needs to be much closer to the catcher, especially with no one on.

To the fair/foul mechanic, I'll relate a personal experience. When I did my first district tournament for our LL (district -> state -> regionals -> LLWS) I was U3 in a four-man crew. A ball was hit that landed past 3B about 2 feet foul. I called it, and put up my hands (at about my head height). After the game, the crew chief (U2) who was also a veteran of a couple trips to LLWS came up to me and said "when you call a ball foul, we call it foul [he put his hands straight out in front of him], we don't surrender [he put his hands up above his head]. So maybe it's a mechanic taught at the LLWS?

[Thunderheads]

11 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

A ball was hit that landed past 3B about 2 feet foul. I called it, and put up my hands (at about my head height). After the game, the crew chief (U2) who was also a veteran of a couple trips to LLWS came up to me and said "when you call a ball foul, we call it foul [he put his hands straight out in front of him], we don't surrender [he put his hands up above his head]. So maybe it's a mechanic taught at the LLWS?

BTW .... The HoK is 'standard operating procedure' for LL plate umps (because 99.9% all do it)

[ousafe]

Re: Foul mechanic taught by LL:

https://www.littleleague.org/videos/foul-mechanic/

(Hands not together, but shoulder width apart and shoulder high...almost like a pushup but a bit higher.)

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, ousafe said:

Re: Foul mechanic taught by LL:

https://www.littleleague.org/videos/foul-mechanic/

(Hands not together, but shoulder width apart and shoulder high...almost like a pushup but a bit higher.)

I'm seeing hands much closer together than the link attached

[Velho]

1 hour ago, ousafe said:

(Hands not together, but shoulder width apart and shoulder high...almost like a pushup but a bit higher.)

2 hours ago, 834k3r said:

"when you call a ball foul, we call it foul [he put his hands straight out in front of him], we don't surrender [he put his hands up above his head]. So maybe it's a mechanic taught at the LLWS?

This is what I've been taught and heard for 10 years.

I'm going to to the LL full week at San Bernadino in November so we'll see if anything has changed.

2 hours ago, 834k3r said:

That PU has the same stance as a few I've seen. What stands out to me is 1) how far behind the catcher he is, and; 2) how upright he is. When I do a LL game, my knees hate me, because I'm getting down to the strike zone for a better look.

No disagreeing... but  ... re: how far back, LL F2s are squirrelly so I've known some you want to stay consistent and setup at a distance they rarely have to deviate from with all the different F2s (also, you really don't want to be the one with UI on ESPN so maybe there's that).

As for getting low, I used to do that and was coached away from it by LL. I do same stance as that picture for back relief and consistency. I'll never get low enough for a 4'2" batter anyway. (hardly justifying it because *I* do it, just sharing).

[ArchAngel72]

Foul signal used to be up a bit more they want it now at shoulder height fingers together 2 stop signs 

Stance they want you now "comfortable"  same repeatable stance every time.  straight on box stance, not turned inward.  Or you can heal toe it but then you're supposed to tuck one arm ( I do not use it so I cannot recall which arm).  They no longer ask you to get down eye level with the top of the strike zone. Oh forgot yes elbows locked so it is solid .

 

These are all 12U

 

One thing you need to think about also...  Where is the camera?  that camera is not centered and yeah I would based on where it was caught say it was out side but where was the balls path and how much worse is that camera angle making it look?

 

 

[ArchAngel72]

2 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

I'm seeing hands much closer together than the link attached

 

Yeah we were taught straight out.  This ump has that heel toe stance I was talking about

 

[Thunderheads]

4 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

One thing you need to think about also...  Where is the camera?  that camera is not centered and yeah I would based on where it was caught say it was out side but where was the balls path and how much worse is that camera angle making it look?

In the opposite batters box, ... clearly

[ArchAngel72]

Just now, Thunderheads said:

In the opposite batters box, ... clearly

 

Where is was caught behind the plate by the catcher.

 

But what was the path of the ball?  Do you have the whole pitch?  I am just going by the photo provided.. I have not seen the game nor any video so its hard for me to judge that honestly

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Where is was caught behind the plate by the catcher.

 

But what was the path of the ball?  Do you have the whole pitch?  I am just going by the photo provided.. I have not seen the game nor any video so its hard for me to judge that honestly

1:45 

 

[SH0102]

7 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Oh forgot yes elbows locked so it is solid

To each their own, but let me ask this…

If you hold out a piece of plywood straight and I punch it, what will happen? What about some other harder substance but that has some flex in it and that has some give?  Which will have more force when hit?

A foul ball hits his elbow, it will shatter. Some bend and room to impact backwards will still hurt like a b*** and maybe cause injury but will be vastly better than that current position

[ArchAngel72]

Something to note they look as though they accommodated with the line as far as camera position

 

the line starts at the glove which looks like its 1/3rd into the batters box BUT when it hits the box line in the front its barely inside the box I would go so far as saying that ball is on the line of the out side batters box enough so it hits the line (just barely but maybe)

[ArchAngel72]

2 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

1:45 

Yeah He missed that one.   That was inside the outside batters box for sure.

but uh... was that the only pitch he missed?

 

I watched my buddy Rob  do the Mid Atl  championship

Watching it on TV I counted 3 that I went OOO Rob you missed those  

Still they rated him at 96% I think So meh 3 pitches.... Yeah we all want perfection but um.. Did I mention these guys are volunteers?

 

[ArchAngel72]

6 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

To each their own, but let me ask this…

If you hold out a piece of plywood straight and I punch it, what will happen? What about some other harder substance but that has some flex in it and that has some give?  Which will have more force when hit?

A foul ball hits his elbow, it will shatter. Some bend and room to impact backwards will still hurt like a b*** and maybe cause injury but will be vastly better than that current position

and a bent elbow allows for inconsistency in stance building not to mention faster muscle fatigue

 

[ArchAngel72]

one thing 

 

I dislike the pattern on the grass...

[SeeingEyeDog]

I agree plate is working too far back from F2. My guess is he thinks because he is back he can then "compensate" by having his head higher? I dunno'...pure speculation on my part. Bottom line is, I know from my own experimenting and tuning that the further back from F2 we work? The harder it is to see low and away no matter how high or low you are. My other speculation is...LL umpires work further back from F2 (some more than others) because 10-12 year olds are still learning the position and tend to be much more active than older, more experienced catchers.

No umpire wants to ever have to call interference on themselves for interfering with a catcher making a throw to putout a runner and by working back and giving them more space helps prevent that...with the cost being, pitches in the opposing box being called strikes? Maybe? I guess?

~Dawg

[ousafe]

Umpire Int is less likely in LL due to no leading off...so I'd say get up in there!  Just be ready to open the gate really quickly.

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

and a bent elbow allows for inconsistency in stance building not to mention faster muscle fatigue

Then ... uh ... maybe don't be resting your weight on your arms.  Your arms should be loose and movable so that when you get hit, the energy is not pounded into a rigid spot.

My hands rest on my thighs, but my arms are completely loose.  There is no weight or support on them.  My elbows do go out a little more, but again ... I'd rather get hit a little wide and be movable than get hit straight on and immutable.  Same thing goes when I am on the field.  My hands never touch my knees.

I will say the same thing for "boxing up."  A slight turn to the body ... SLIGHT ... allows the energy of a foul ball to be deflected and dissipated rather than absorbed.

One more thing, IMO, your stance should not be rigidly consistent.  It should change based on the batter.

 

[The Man in Blue]

Sorry, LL.  Changing tried and true mechanics is just doofy.  Yeah, doofy.  None of the changes you have made make sense.

The hands should be up around head height so that people see them.  

[834k3r]

21 hours ago, Velho said:

re: how far back, LL F2s are squirrelly so I've known some you want to stay consistent and setup at a distance they rarely have to deviate from with all the different F2s (also, you really don't want to be the one with UI on ESPN so maybe there's that).

As for getting low, I used to do that and was coached away from it by LL. I do same stance as that picture for back relief and consistency. I'll never get low enough for a 4'2" batter anyway. (hardly justifying it because *I* do it, just sharing).

 

19 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Stance they want you now "comfortable"  same repeatable stance every time.  straight on box stance, not turned inward.  Or you can heal toe it but then you're supposed to tuck one arm ( I do not use it so I cannot recall which arm).  They no longer ask you to get down eye level with the top of the strike zone. Oh forgot yes elbows locked so it is solid .

I didn't mean to insinuate I'm as close to the catcher in LL (majors, 12U) as I am in my HS games, but in my mind if the PU is standing up that far in his stance, that far behind the catcher, how does he accurately see the low zone--let alone low and outside? I guess I'll never be a LLWS umpire then. Standing up above the zone just doesn't feel right for me and calling an accurate zone is more important that going to the LLWS.

I have respect for the umpires that get to go to regionals and especially the LLWS, but I guess I now realize I can't drink that Kool-Aid.

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

I have respect for the umpires that get to go to regionals and especially the LLWS, but I guess I now realize I can't drink that Kool-Aid.

I'm not a Kool-Aid drinker in general. You make good points and I'll pressure test the instruction when I go to Region school in November.

[Vegas_Ump]

A few comments.  

Yes, Little League teaches the foul mechanic to look like the pushup, and then point.  I took the WR clinic and that's what they taught.  So you will see LL umps using it.

I am concerned about the timing of ball/strike calls.  Some umps wait for nightfall before they make the call.  I have not seen anyone be too quick!  About 10 years ago, Japan was playing in the finals, and they scouted the umpires!  They had bases loaded, and the batter had a 3-1 count.  The ump was really slow!  R3 trotted on in and scored thinking (ostensibly) it was ball four.  And then the ump sounds off "Strike!"  I know LL is worried about folks quick on the draw; but that late is ridiculous!  Tournament umpires are just better than that!

I am all for standardized mechanics because in State tournaments and above, you might be working with people you've never done games with before!  After Andy Konyar retired, there was no UIC for LL.  (Not sure if that's still true!)  So the regions took on the role of training standardization.  And in Regionals and WS I saw umps from different Regions calling "Dead Ball!" and signalling strikes oddly.  Clearly, points of emphasis were different.

As for the zones, let me comment a bit.  I suspect most of the umps here do 90' games.  At the 60' LL games, the pitcher is way closer to the plate.  And the handedness of the pitcher vs the batter matters a lot more!  A left-hander will usually not get the outside pitch to a righty batter.  There is simply no way the ball can catch the outside of the plate!  But he sure will get the inside ones, because the geometry of the pitch to the catcher's mitt is much more angular than 90'.  That ball really does cross the plate! So it looks weird, especially on TV.  (And being a "star" on ESPN during Regionals myself, the TV camera changes the actual perceived distance from base umpires down the foul line.  It looks like the ump is mucking up the play for the fielder, but there is plenty of room!  It just looks compressed on TV.)

If you are watching the LLWS, see how the rule interpretations get expressed by the announcers.  I remember how Harold Reynolds botched every weird call and created more confusion than the play itself.  Obstruction/Interference always gets confused, for instance.

In conclusion, I think some of the criticism of the LLWS umps is valid.  Hopefully I have presented a discussion as to where the issues arise.

Enjoy the games!

Mike

Las Vegas, WR Ump 2017

[SeeingEyeDog]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Then ... uh ... maybe don't be resting your weight on your arms.  Your arms should be loose and movable so that when you get hit, the energy is not pounded into a rigid spot.

My hands rest on my thighs, but my arms are completely loose.  There is no weight or support on them.  My elbows do go out a little more, but again ... I'd rather get hit a little wide and be movable than get hit straight on and immutable.  Same thing goes when I am on the field.  My hands never touch my knees.

I will say the same thing for "boxing up."  A slight turn to the body ... SLIGHT ... allows the energy of a foul ball to be deflected and dissipated rather than absorbed.

One more thing, IMO, your stance should not be rigidly consistent.  It should change based on the batter.

 

Yes! Another reason we don't want to be square to the plate is because from the slot we are watching the pitch come "across" the plate as much as we are watching it cross the plate. By getting that slight body turn inwards on both sides of the plate, maybe 3-5 degrees, it gets OUR NOSE out of the way of the final stages of the flight of the pitch and allows us to see that final stage with BOTH eyes. This is a constant area of development for me...we want to see the pitcher release the pitch from a slight side eye angle, tracking the pitch all the way to the mitt and then seeing it in the mitt with a final bit of side eye opposite where we were when we picked up the release. During cage sessions, get a partner out in front of the plate and to the opposite side from you. If it's a righty hitter, your partner should setup on the first base side...lefty hitter, third base side. Have your partner focus on your eyes as the pitches come in and have him tell you if you are fully tracking the pitch all the way to the mitt. Our heads should be level and still and our eyes sweep to the side and perhaps up or down to track the pitch.

~Dawg