Team Loses Championship Celebrating Despite Uncaught Third Strike

[Lindsay]

The Pal-Mac Red Raiders ran the bases to score the tying and winning runs to earn a walk-off New York V-BI championship win over Hornell after an umpire ruled that Hornell's catcher failed to tag the batter-runner following an uncaught third strike with two outs in the final inning of play.

With two on and two out in the bottom of the 7th inning (NFHS/high school plays seven innings to OBR's nine) and visiting Hornell leading Pal-Mac by a one-run margin, Pal-Mac's batter took a two-strike pitch for a called third strike. Hornell's catcher, however, did not catch the pitch and scooped up the uncaught third strike before attempting to tag the batter-runner, who was sprinting to first base.

As the catcher ventured toward the pitcher's mound to celebrate an apparent championship win with his team, he glanced at the home plate umpire momentarily, but didn't watch long enough to see the umpire give a "safe" sign, signifying that the batter-runner had not been retired.

With no third out recorded, Pal-Mac's runners kept running the bases, scoring the tying and winning runs as Hornell jumped up and down, celebrating a premature non-win in the infield.

Video as follows:

Alternate Link: HS team loses championship due to premature celebration on uncaught 3rd strike

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[Mad Mike]

Mechanically speaking, the HP umpire ringing this guy up is not optimal. The ball was on the ground.  He was so busy ringing him up that he does not even get a good look at whether there was a tag or not....he  certainly did not rule on whether a tag was successful or not, nor did he give a 'safe' signal to signify no catch. Like Lin pointed out, I wonder if there was an verbalization. 

BTW-The base ump did not even appear to pick up touches by the runners. 

What else could we have done differently here?

[The Man in Blue]

I will disagree with @Lindsay that the "chain saw" mechanic is properly used here.  Unless the batter IS OUT, you should not be breaking out your "special strike 3 call."  The appropriate mechanic is simply a strike call, followed by your indication of an uncaught 3rd strike.  Agreed on the rest of it though, nothing was called "BIG" enough.

Agreed with @Mad Mike that there is a lot more to breakdown on the base umpire mechanics.  A discrete signal on the no catch, watching the runners touch, U3 wandering around the middle of the infield at the "supposed conclusion" while U1 is staying put ...

I'll show my 3-man ignorance and ask a question I'm not sure about ... R1 and R2, 2 outs ... should U1 be on the line and U3 be in the middle?  I would have thought U3 would be on the line and U1 would be off the line.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@The Man in Blue, as usual, I think you are on to something here...

When I did my pre-season cage work this year, the instructors always run some U3K pitches at the end of the session. I am using a new one-piece, "chain saw starter" strike three mechanic this season accompanied with a, "THREE!" verbalization. When I ran this in the cage with U3K, I of course added, "NO CATCH! NO CATCH!" with a safe mechanic. The instructor looked it all over and thought the THREE! verbalization on a U3K although loud and clear...might be too brief. He recommended on a U3K, I say "STRIKE THREE!" (with the same mechanic) followed by the safe mechanic. This then lead to a conversation about should I or any umpire have to take more time to process and then execute a different verbalization based on whether we have F2 catching the pitch legally or not. Up to this point, I have been altering my verbalization based on what occurred. After watching this video, I am giving serious consideration to re-thinking that approach...

~Dawg 

[Tborze]

8 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I will disagree with @Lindsay that the "chain saw" mechanic is properly used here.  Unless the batter IS OUT, you should not be breaking out your "special strike 3 call."  The appropriate mechanic is simply a strike call, followed by your indication of an uncaught 3rd strike.  Agreed on the rest of it though, nothing was called "BIG" enough.

Agreed with @Mad Mike that there is a lot more to breakdown on the base umpire mechanics.  A discrete signal on the no catch, watching the runners touch, U3 wandering around the middle of the infield at the "supposed conclusion" while U1 is staying put ...

I'll show my 3-man ignorance and ask a question I'm not sure about ... R1 and R2, 2 outs ... should U1 be on the line and U3 be in the middle?  I would have thought U3 would be on the line and U1 would be off the line.

Any time there is a R1, or R3, U1 is in A. 
U1 is also in A with 2 outs. 

[Jimurray]

5 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@The Man in Blue, as usual, I think you are on to something here...

When I did my pre-season cage work this year, the instructors always run some U3K pitches at the end of the session. I am using a new one-piece, "chain saw starter" strike three mechanic this season accompanied with a, "THREE!" verbalization. When I ran this in the cage with U3K, I of course added, "NO CATCH! NO CATCH!" with a safe mechanic. The instructor looked it all over and thought the THREE! verbalization on a U3K although loud and clear...might be too brief. He recommended on a U3K, I say "STRIKE THREE!" (with the same mechanic) followed by the safe mechanic. This then lead to a conversation about should I or any umpire have to take more time to process and then execute a different verbalization based on whether we have F2 catching the pitch legally or not. Up to this point, I have been altering my verbalization based on what occurred. After watching this video, I am giving serious consideration to re-thinking that approach...

~Dawg 

After the Eddings fiasco MLB changed to a right arm point. That and the appropriate verbal work for me. 

[Velho]

All good points on U3K mechanics and verbalization.

In this case though, the tag / no-tag judgement seems to be the issue. As said before, coming up big with "NO TAG! NO TAG!" would have gone a long way there. Especially as F2 looks back for confirmation a tag was called for an out.

[Richvee]

34 minutes ago, Velho said:

All good points on U3K mechanics and verbalization.

In this case though, the tag / no-tag judgement seems to be the issue. As said before, coming up big with "NO TAG! NO TAG!" would have gone a long way there. Especially as F2 looks back for confirmation a tag was called for an out.

Agree. This whole fiasco is because of the half hearted safe call after the tag attempt. Chainsaw, verbal "ball's down"...whatever...Everyone knew it was strike three. Everyone knew the ball was not caught. Nobody (except F4 who no one was paying attention to) saw U1's safe call on the tag. I believe it was a "quiet" safe signal because U1 really didn't know if the tag was applied or not. 

This is a mechanic I've been working on for a while. When that ball hits the ground, we need to immediately start moving with the batter up the 1B line. This gives us the look at F2 reaching for the BR and we can see tag/no tag clearly. 

It's been a tough mechanic for me to learn...Lack of reps and for some reason muscle memory has me leaning around the left side of F2. This clip emphasizes the importance of moving up the 1B line with the runner after the drop. 

[beerguy55]

Well, both F4 and F8 knew what was happening.

What I'm really wondering is why the base umpire didn't...otherwise, wtf is he doing....he's staring at the celebration...if the game is over, get off the field, if the game is not over, watch the runners.  He decides really late that PU never called out and that he might need to watch the R1.

As a coach here, I'm fired.  Instead of turning around and waiting for an ump make the call for three beats, if you don't immediate HEAR an out call just throw to first...by the time the ump gave a safe signal the base runner was more than half way to first.  The ump has to process - nothing is instantaneous...just throw the ball ffs.

It looks to me like he missed the tag...or still had the ball in his bare hand and tagged with the glove.

Other weirdness here...R2 took an awful long time to score - he was running as soon as B/R started running but then took forever to get to the plate...and it looks like R1 was basically standing on the base and didn't go anywhere when B/R was running to first - he certainly wasn't moving the second right away.  But then we see R1 round second and R2 is not home yet.  Wondering if R1 or R2 abandoned at any point....that would be a snotty call.

This is one of those classic "the ump cost us the state championship" cries,  and we'll conveniently ignore the two errors and the bad baseball sense of the catcher and pitcher.

F4 and F8 knew what was happening.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, Richvee said:

It's been a tough mechanic for me to learn...Lack of reps and for some reason muscle memory has me leaning around the left side of F2. This clip emphasizes the importance of moving up the 1B line with the runner after the drop. 

Possibly because your muscle memory is to clear the catcher to the 3B side?

[Jimurray]

5 hours ago, Velho said:

Possibly because your muscle memory is to clear the catcher to the 3B side?

Or because a tag out happens less than a throwdown where you go 1BX to look at RLI?

[Richvee]

6 hours ago, Velho said:

Possibly because your muscle memory is to clear the catcher to the 3B side?

 

43 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Or because a tag out happens less than a throwdown where you go 1BX to look at RLI?

Probably  little of both. 
It’s that peek/lean around the catcher to the left to see if it’s on the ground. If you try to look over F2’s left shoulder to see if the ball is uncaught, it’s already too late to get that first step towards 1b in time. I’m still working on it. It’s been a tough mechanic too commit to muscle memory. 

[834k3r]

23 hours ago, Richvee said:

It's been a tough mechanic for me to learn...Lack of reps and for some reason muscle memory has me leaning around the left side of F2. This clip emphasizes the importance of moving up the 1B line with the runner after the drop. 

You're not alone. I habitually go around the left side because in my experience, F2s usually turn to the right to pursue passed balls, pop-ups, etc.

Back to the original topic, I'm enjoying this conversation. I try to learn something from every video discussing umpires and mechanics, as far as the lesson here is concerned I've found myself in a situation similar to the video's PU. When I performed a self-critique post-game, it usually boils down to being too quick with the strikeout, then realizing the play isn't over. That realization puts me in a difficult spot mentally:  don't be too quick with the chainsaw, but it's got to be quick because of the rapidly-developing play that is U3K. Like @Richvee said, lack of reps make this a tough one.

On another note, I'm very disappointed in seeing the number of comments on social media talking about the poor zone. and how that was a ball. Explain to me, Mr. Social Media Video Umpire, how your view from your phone (most likely) of a video from an off-center, distant camera is better than a peer-selected, trained umpire?

[UMP45]

Anyone notice the catcher shoved the ball in his back pocket?

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, UMP45 said:

Anyone notice the catcher shoved the ball in his back pocket?

Yup - wanted the memento really bad.  He can put it on his Shelf of Shame.

[The Man in Blue]

11 minutes ago, UMP45 said:

Anyone notice the catcher shoved the ball in his back pocket?

That is being discussed at length in the other thread … 

 

… and I’ll repeat my initial position: “chainsaws” and special strike 3 calls are for strike OUTS … you don’t have an out yet, so keep it in your ball bag on an uncaught third strike.  Call the strike like any other and then make your uK3 signal of choice.

[834k3r]

4 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

… and I’ll repeat my initial position: “chainsaws” and special strike 3 calls are for strike OUTS … you don’t have an out yet, so keep it in your ball bag on an uncaught third strike.

I would add:  that makes timing even more critical. Too quick, you're chainsawing a U3K. Too slow, the play is altered by the BR and/or F2 not understanding the situation.

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

That is being discussed at length in the other thread … 

 

… and I’ll repeat my initial position: “chainsaws” and special strike 3 calls are for strike OUTS … you don’t have an out yet, so keep it in your ball bag on an uncaught third strike.  Call the strike like any other and then make your uK3 signal of choice.

You shouldn't call the strike like any other. You should call it like MLB changed after the Eddings messup. Whatever verbal is appropriate and a right arm point. That allows you to give a safe signal or an out signal on an immediate tag and if no tag holding the right arm point for all to see an UTK. 

[Richvee]

42 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

That is being discussed at length in the other thread … 

 

… and I’ll repeat my initial position: “chainsaws” and special strike 3 calls are for strike OUTS … you don’t have an out yet, so keep it in your ball bag on an uncaught third strike.  Call the strike like any other and then make your uK3 signal of choice.

Agree...But to the point of this play...PU can't "unring" his chainsaw. What he can do...and this is the learning moment.....Be HUGE on the "no tag" . I agree, if the right arm is out, he could keep it out there, and verbalize no tag, but the chainsaw is complete, and now you must accept that was the wrong mechanic, and now make sure EVERYONE knows the situation....it.s aU3K and F2 missed the tag. 

Certainly not bashing U1 here. My take is he knew he shouldn't have chainsawed, knew the ball was down, but it happens fast, and he wasn't sure about the tag/no tag, and that accounted for the weak safe call.

Seven innings of total concentration...He probably called a great game, and one little lack of focus here, and BANG! He's a viral video . 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

You shouldn't call the strike like any other. You should call it like MLB changed after the Eddings messup. Whatever verbal is appropriate and a right arm point. That allows you to give a safe signal or an out signal on an immediate tag and if no tag holding the right arm point for all to see an UTK. 

Thank you for the clarification … I shouldn’t have said it that way.  My point was don’t call it a strike out (chainsaw) and then try to move into the UK3 mechanic.  It should be a strike signal followed by your preferred UK3 mechanic.

I give it a big strike call (not my strike out), with a verbal (strike three!), and then the safe mechanic.

 

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Thank you for the clarification … I shouldn’t have said it that way.  My point was don’t call it a strike out (chainsaw) and then try to move into the UK3 mechanic.  It should be a strike signal followed by your preferred UK3 mechanic.

I give it a big strike call (not my strike out), with a verbal (strike three!), and then the safe mechanic.

 

The problem with using the safe mechanic is you may be signaling safe during an immediate tag attempt that is an out and you have to change to an out signal. 

[The Man in Blue]

I can understand that, but I don’t see it as that big of an issue.  He is safe … until he’s out.  😁
 

But he’s not out until he’s safe, so stop chainsawing!  😁

[beerguy55]

Conversely, I will say good on the batter.

He got a questionable/close strike three call, and didn't huff and puff, didn't turn to argue with Blue, didn't start muttering and make his way to the dug out...he saw the ball in the dirt and ran his ass off.

[Richvee]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:34 PM, beerguy55 said:

Conversely, I will say good on the batter.

He got a questionable/close strike three call, and didn't huff and puff, didn't turn to argue with Blue, didn't start muttering and make his way to the dug out...he saw the ball in the dirt and ran his ass off.

...AND....even if he was tagged...he sold the hell out of the "no tag" and kept on running.