Little League leaving base early

[Guest Craig Tucker]

Bases loaded 1 out.  Runner on 3rd leaves early.  Batter hits the ball up the middle for a clean single fielded by the CF.  The runner on 3rd scores.  The runner on second tries to score but is thrown out at the plate by the CF.  Play is over.  What is the call?

[LMSANS]

I'll take a crack at it, been about 40 years since I worked LL.

The out stands, R3 goes back to third.

How did I do?

[elares]

B/R @ 1B

R1 @ 2B

R2 is out

R3 @ 3B

 

 

[Guest Craig Tucker]

7 minutes ago, elares said:

B/R @ 1B

R1 @ 2B

R2 is out

R3 @ 3B

 

 

I forgot to mention (which I don't think it matters) R1 went to 3B on the throw and B/R went to 2B on the throw.  I would assum B/R has to go back to 1B and R1 has to go back to 2B?  Which leaves 3B open.  Therefore  the runner that scored goes back to 3B?

[834k3r]

Narrowly avoided the scenario no LL umpire wants. If no outs were made, R3 basically disappears. But in this situation we do have an out. The 2023 RIM has this in 7-13(c), example 15:

• Bases full, any runner leaves too soon, batter reaches first safely on any ball bunted or hit within the infield, all runners advance one base except runner advancing from third. Runner advancing from third is removed, no run is scored and no out charged. If on the play, a putout at any base results in an open base, runner who occupied third base returns to third base.

At the end of the play, 2B is open, so we put R3 back at 3B, which forces R2 back to 2B. New situation is R1, R2, and R3; two outs.

[Mudisfun]

So in LL when you have a runner leaving early scenario, you only will advance the batter what the umpire judges to be the true value of the hit. What should be a single and which turns into a triple because of the zoo plays which happen after are negated. Any outs recorded stand and all runners will be moved as far back as possible, including removing the run scored and putting that runner back on the track.

In your scenario, the out at home stands, and since there is now a vacant base and the true value of the hit is a single, the scored runner is returned to 3rd, R1 moved to 2nd and the B/R to 1st.

[Jay R.]

5 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

Narrowly avoided the scenario no LL umpire wants. If no outs were made, R3 basically disappears.

Is this a change?

When I worked LL (2013 through 2019), there was language in 7.13 about the umpire determining the value of a hit. Runners only totally disappeared if the batted ball stayed in the infield. Given the OP's description of the play as a "clean single" I would assume that, were all runners safe, the run would score. 

[834k3r]

2 minutes ago, Jay R. said:

Is this a change?

When I worked LL (2013 through 2019), there was language in 7.13 about the umpire determining the value of a hit. Runners only totally disappeared if the batted ball stayed in the infield. Given the OP's description of the play as a "clean single" I would assume that, were all runners safe, the run would score. 

The RIM does say "hit within the infield," but I would counter by saying there's no ruling for a single to the outfield if a runner leaves early. To that end, I would opine the resulting placement of runners is valid in either case.

[Mudisfun]

The disappearing runner rule only applies to a clean hit to the infield. Think a bunt where all runners advance and no error is made. In that case, the runner is not out, but the run does not score either; thus the 'poof' play.

 

The OP's scenario is not the same, especially since R2 was thrown out at home. 

[stevis]

Also, what do you mean no LL umpire wants that scenario?  I'm still mad I didn't get to check it off my scavenger hunt list at a state tournament some years ago, when I dropped the flag on four straight pitches on R2, and on the 5th one he figured it out--that, of course, being the one we had the ground ball to third that would have ended up a poof play. 

And yes, within in the infield--single to the outfield, everyone's getting one base and a run would score, absent the out which gives us room to return runners.

[Mudisfun]

On 5/13/2023 at 7:52 AM, stevis said:

Also, what do you mean no LL umpire wants that scenario?  I'm still mad I didn't get to check it off my scavenger hunt list at a state tournament some years ago, when I dropped the flag on four straight pitches on R2, and on the 5th one he figured it out--that, of course, being the one we had the ground ball to third that would have ended up a poof play. 

And yes, within in the infield--single to the outfield, everyone's getting one base and a run would score, absent the out which gives us room to return runners.

No kidding, right? I want to not only try and explain it to a coach, but I want them to try and make the ruling work in Game Changer!

[Velho]

On 5/15/2023 at 8:31 AM, Mudisfun said:

No kidding, right? I want to not only try and explain it to a coach, but I want them to try and make the ruling work in Game Changer!

The other one that'd be fun is bases loaded, judged triple but BR out at home. Out stands and send everyone back. Fortunately it's explicit in the RIM so we know the ruling but the Greenbook could be clearer (you have to combine example 7 and Note 2 and it leaves some airspace for debate).

[beerguy55]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:11 PM, 834k3r said:

The RIM does say "hit within the infield," but I would counter by saying there's no ruling for a single to the outfield if a runner leaves early. To that end, I would opine the resulting placement of runners is valid in either case.

Not in my understanding.  If a clean single to the outfield and all runners advance one base, all runners would remain and the run would count.

The purpose of the rule is to address the advantage gained by leaving early.  That advantage can make a difference on an infield hit.  It would be (typically) inconsequential on a hit to the outfield.  

Edit: the kids have it easy in LL baseball. In most softball, including LL softball, it's dead ball, no pitch, runner out.

[Lou B]

29 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Edit: the kids have it easy in LL baseball. In most softball, including LL softball, it's dead ball, no pitch, runner out.

Obviously the girls playing LLSB are smarter than the boys and girls playing LLBB.

[Vegas_Ump]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:29 PM, LMSANS said:

I'll take a crack at it, been about 40 years since I worked LL.

The out stands, R3 goes back to third.

How did I do?

Pretty well!

The way to think of it, take these steps:

1.  Place the batter.  Is he out?  Fine!  Put him in the dugout.  Is he safe?  He will be placed on the base that represents the clean value of the hit.  So, if you judge he gets a clean double, and he advances to third on an error, place him back at second.

2.  Now, place runners where you have room.  If the batter is retired, then put everybody back EXCEPT if any other runners are retired, their outs stand, and they do NOT go back.

3.  Special case:  If the batter obtains first base on an infield single or error, R3 is removed.  He is not out!  He does not score!  He goes "poof!"  So this is called the "poof play".  I guarantee you will have to explain this to the manager, and cite rule 7.13.

Other considerations:  Suppose a runner who is forced misses a base and then is retired for the third out on appeal.  NO RUNS SCORE!  That would be the case for any play regardless of a 7.13 violation.  BUT, Suppose the batter or any other runner is retired for the third out AND a 7.13 violation occurred?  You have three outs!  Inning Over!  But you technically have to put runners back!  This may take some or all runs off the board! And you will be explaining this to both managers while the teams switch sides from offense to defense.

OK, it rarely happens, and it's actually pretty simple.  But at the clinics you get the poof play all the time!

Mike

Las Vegas

 

[beerguy55]

15 hours ago, Lou B said:

Obviously the girls playing LLSB are smarter than the boys and girls playing LLBB.

Nah...they're just preparing the girls to meet a higher standard, as they'll have to do through high school, university, and into the corporate world.