Teams Left Field with Just Two Outs

[NateWalter]

Weird one from last night. 13U (USSSA) matchup. The game was going smoothly until the 5th inning, that's when the game went off the rails. In one half inning, we had two injuries, a pitching change, an error fest. All in all, that one half inning took nearly 35 minutes. (Oddly, we still finished 7 innings in 1 hour and 45 minutes.)

The order of things went something like this (I'm giving this to the best of my recollection):

1. Out 1
2. A ton of hits and walks and errors
3. Injury (stemming from a hit by pitch)
4. A lengthy delay to check on batter
5. More hits, more walks, more errors
6. An injury to the shortstop.
7. A pitching change. Note: It's important to note that I reminded the new pitcher that there was just one out. I reminded everyone that there was just one out. No one said anything to disagree with me.
8. Out 2

After Out 2, the hitting team (Visitor) leaves the field, as their coach told them there were 3 outs. The defense (Home) leaves the field, mercifully. Now, it's important to also note two things:

First, my partner and I were both confused. We both had that last out as the second out. We got together and decided if they wanted to stop hitting with only two outs, we weren't going to stop them. We would consider it a forfeiture of their third out.

Second, the visiting team had been on the field, thrown multiple warm up pitches and the catcher was getting ready to launch it to the second baseman before their coach came out with realization his team only had two outs. He was pleading with us to let his team come back up and try to get his third out (mind you, they were ahead 9-1, or something like that... they didn't need the extra runs). We told them no. We felt as though he missed his window to appeal this, and he shouldn't have sent his kids out to warm up before appealing this.

I've been scouring the rulebooks trying to figure out if my ruling was correct. Perhaps I missed something, so I'll bring it here.

Were we right to not let them come back and hit again after they left the field (and subsequently warmed up on defense) with just two outs?

 

[noumpere]

Option 1:  Assuming there were runners, call one of them out for abandonment -- third out.

Option 2: As soon as you question the number of outs, go to the official scorer or get the coaches together and determine the correct number.  If it's two, put the teams back and resume play.

 

For me, the CS&FP handbook leads me to choose option 2.

[SeeingEyeDog]

2 hours ago, NateWalter said:

(mind you, they were ahead 9-1, or something like that... they didn't need the extra runs).

 

From an umpire's perspective, be careful not to let this thinking enter into your rulings and work. Sometimes the game helps us, sometimes we have to help the game...I understand it completely. Be careful...

~Dawg

[wolfe_man]

I hate these odd-ball situations, had one earlier this year similar.  But instead of lost track of outs, batter lost track of the count even though I vocalize every 3rd pitch and signal every pitch where it could end in a walk or strikeout.

Long story short, 2-2 count - batter thinks 3-2 so on ball outside he starts meandering towards first base.  F1 looks at me confused, I say "that's ball three"... batter keeps walking, fans are screaming (1-0 game and they're finally getting base-runners) so he can't hear me... "that's ball three" I say again. By this time, we're halfway to first base and I'm signaling 2-2 with my hands and following the batter as he walks down the 1B line.   Then, it happens... R1 takes off for 2B and gets in a run-down and eventually tagged out killing their perceived rally.   As we go back to the batter's box no one said a word.  I must have said (loudly I might add) the count at least 3-4 times trying to get the batter's attention.  The AC on 1B had no idea of the count either the whole time - and did I mention this was a HS Varsity game?   After third out, HC walks me and asked what had happened.  I told him what I had and that I had tried to get AC and batter to realize it was only 2-2 but they evidently didn't hear me.... he didn't say a word, just walked away shaking his head in bewilderment I think.  They ended up losing 1-0 with strong pitching throughout game on both sides. 

I have re-thought how I could have avoided it many times since that game, but keep coming back with it being a perfect storm.  I can't tell the defense what to do and I can't assist the offense. I signaled the count pre-pitch,  I balled the pitch, I reminded the batter numerous times (so did F2 initially) that it was only ball three.  I following him towards 1B, probably 2/3 way down the line.  They had a scoreboad operator keeping count which also had 2-2.  Just a freak situation that was very unfortunate for them, but I still hate it.  Next time, I'll yell out the count so the whole field knows if I get in a situation like that ever again.  You live and learn.  But the thing is, I've seen this ONCE in almost 8-9 years - odds are I won't see it again either.  It's one of those things.

A team walking off the field with 2 outs... very rare at upper levels of HS and good travel baseball even.  This normally either happens at LL or Babe Ruth (13U fits here) or it is one of those very rare situations that you see once and then never again.  For your sake (and mine), let's hope we that we have the weird situation behind us.

[NateWalter]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Option 2: As soon as you question the number of outs, go to the official scorer or get the coaches together and determine the correct number.  If it's two, put the teams back and resume play.

So here's the other conundrum: if the home team goes back out there, it's been a good 2-3 minutes. The pitcher hasn't pitched that entire time.

Do we let him warm up again? How do we protect the pitcher in this case? Again, it was the offense that left the field first, then the defense left in response.

[noumpere]

39 minutes ago, NateWalter said:

So here's the other conundrum: if the home team goes back out there, it's been a good 2-3 minutes. The pitcher hasn't pitched that entire time.

Do we let him warm up again? How do we protect the pitcher in this case? Again, it was the offense that left the field first, then the defense left in response.

What do we do when there's been any lengthy delay (injury, cow on the field, short rain storm, lights go out, )?  IOW, the answer to your question is self evident.

[BigBlue4u]

5 hours ago, NateWalter said:

A pitching change. Note: It's important to note that I reminded the new pitcher that there was just one out. I reminded everyone that there was just one out. No one said anything to disagree with me.

It's not a good idea to remind anyone (partner excepted) how many outs there are.  First, that's the coach's job, and second, you are going to get the dirty end of the stick when you give a player the number of outs and something happens and he claims you gave him the wrong number of outs.

[BigBlue4u]

3 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I have re-thought how I could have avoided it many times since that game, but keep coming back with it being a perfect storm.  I can't tell the defense what to do and I can't assist the offense.

Sure you can.  The minute the b/r with the 3-2 counts takes off for second, run toward the pitcher's mound, where everyone can see you, with both hands in the air and call, "Time, time." Then, inform everyone the count is 3-2.  Bring the b/r back to the plate and if necessary, return runners to bases occupied and continue with a 3-2 count.  

[wolfe_man]

13 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

Sure you can.  The minute the b/r with the 3-2 counts takes off for second, run toward the pitcher's mound, where everyone can see you, with both hands in the air and call, "Time, time." Then, inform everyone the count is 3-2.  Bring the b/r back to the plate and if necessary, return runners to bases occupied and continue with a 3-2 count.  

One simply  does not do this in Varsity baseball if one wants to get more games from an Assignor. 

At this level, they are expected to know and understand the game enough to follow the counts, outs and situations.  They do not need coaching from an umpire to know the correct count - and if they do lose track and don't ask, then their head will roll (as it should be) when the HC loses it for them costing him an out due to their negligence.

I am an umpire. I enforce the rules.  I keep the count and announce it every third pitch.  I signal it even more frequently, especially when there is a chance of a walk or strikeout on the next pitch.  They have a scoreboard that keeps track of them with a player on the bench following my every count announcement and updating it.  There is NO good reason for them NOT to know the count.  If they don't, it's on them.  It is NOT the umpire's place to interfere with a legal play at this level and cause the defense to be at a disadvantage due to an offensive player's lapse of paying attention.

I say all this as kindly as I can.  If I were to interject myself into this situation with "time time" and kill it, then I would have the HC all over me and probably get a call from my Assignor asking why I did that - and rightfully so.

[The Man in Blue]

8 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

It's not a good idea to remind anyone (partner excepted) how many outs there are.  First, that's the coach's job, and second, you are going to get the dirty end of the stick when you give a player the number of outs and something happens and he claims you gave him the wrong number of outs.

Varsity game a few weeks ago where the scoreboard operator had two outs up there.  There was only one.  The home team gave up several hits/walks, so it stayed up there for quite a while.  My partner and I kept signaling each other just to make sure we knew.  The 3B coach kept asking me just to make sure.  My partner even announced it twice (I wouldn't have done that).  The home team got the second/"third" out and walked off the field ... two more runs scored.

The home team coach came out yelling at us.  Sorry coach.  Nothing we can do to help you there.  It was your scoreboard operator, and your bookkeeper is sitting right next to you.   

[umpstu]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Varsity game a few weeks ago where the scoreboard operator had two outs up there.  There was only one.  The home team gave up several hits/walks, so it stayed up there for quite a while.  My partner and I kept signaling each other just to make sure we knew.  The 3B coach kept asking me just to make sure.  My partner even announced it twice (I wouldn't have done that).  The home team got the second/"third" out and walked off the field ... two more runs scored.

The home team coach came out yelling at us.  Sorry coach.  Nothing we can do to help you there.  It was your scoreboard operator, and your bookkeeper is sitting right next to you.   

Why not get the scoreboard operator to correct the scoreboard?  Like right away?

[umpstu]

11 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

It's not a good idea to remind anyone (partner excepted) how many outs there are.  First, that's the coach's job, and second, you are going to get the dirty end of the stick when you give a player the number of outs and something happens and he claims you gave him the wrong number of outs.

When I have a pitching change I'm going to let the new pitcher know the outs, count and how many runners there are.  Don't agree with the not being a good idea.  Give him the correct number of outs and if he lies then deal with it.

[umpstu]

17 hours ago, NateWalter said:

Weird one from last night. 13U (USSSA) matchup. The game was going smoothly until the 5th inning, that's when the game went off the rails. In one half inning, we had two injuries, a pitching change, an error fest. All in all, that one half inning took nearly 35 minutes. (Oddly, we still finished 7 innings in 1 hour and 45 minutes.)

The order of things went something like this (I'm giving this to the best of my recollection):

1. Out 1
2. A ton of hits and walks and errors
3. Injury (stemming from a hit by pitch)
4. A lengthy delay to check on batter
5. More hits, more walks, more errors
6. An injury to the shortstop.
7. A pitching change. Note: It's important to note that I reminded the new pitcher that there was just one out. I reminded everyone that there was just one out. No one said anything to disagree with me.
8. Out 2

After Out 2, the hitting team (Visitor) leaves the field, as their coach told them there were 3 outs. The defense (Home) leaves the field, mercifully. Now, it's important to also note two things:

First, my partner and I were both confused. We both had that last out as the second out. We got together and decided if they wanted to stop hitting with only two outs, we weren't going to stop them. We would consider it a forfeiture of their third out.

Second, the visiting team had been on the field, thrown multiple warm up pitches and the catcher was getting ready to launch it to the second baseman before their coach came out with realization his team only had two outs. He was pleading with us to let his team come back up and try to get his third out (mind you, they were ahead 9-1, or something like that... they didn't need the extra runs). We told them no. We felt as though he missed his window to appeal this, and he shouldn't have sent his kids out to warm up before appealing this.

I've been scouring the rulebooks trying to figure out if my ruling was correct. Perhaps I missed something, so I'll bring it here.

Were we right to not let them come back and hit again after they left the field (and subsequently warmed up on defense) with just two outs?

 

I think you were right in not letting them come back out to hit.  I think I would have stopped the teams from switching sides until you got things figured out and straightened up.

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, umpstu said:

Why not get the scoreboard operator to correct the scoreboard?  Like right away?

Agreed

5 hours ago, umpstu said:

When I have a pitching change I'm going to let the new pitcher know the outs, count and how many runners there are.  Don't agree with the not being a good idea.  Give him the correct number of outs and if he lies then deal with it.

Disagreed (especially at higher levels).  Not that my opinion matters.

[The Man in Blue]

I view it the same as the scoreboard operator having the count (or the score) wrong.  I will announce the count loudly and frequently (more often than usual), but it isn’t my job to babysit the scoreboard operator, too.  If the scoreboard is wrong and it is game-contingent (e.g., run rule imminent or end of a close game), I will check with the bookkeepers so I know we are right, but the scoreboard isn’t mine.

We weren’t keeping it a secret.  Like I said, my partner verbally announced it multiple times.  I heard that from C, so I know the infield and dugouts heard it (whether they chose to pay attention or not is another story). The third base coach asked me multiple times which F5 and F6 also heard.

It kind of surprise me when we use the “it’s their responsibility to know” when it is convenient on things like an uncaught third strike or infield fly, but then want to coddle them on other things.

[Velho]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

9 hours ago, umpstu said:

Why not get the scoreboard operator to correct the scoreboard?  Like right away?

Agreed

If I did that in my LL games every time the games would take 4 hours. Rather, if it gets bad enough I will have them stop doing the count or (if things are bad enough) the outs.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 8.3, p. 146)--

In a situation--unrelated to a missed ball-strike count--where teams mistakenly change sides before three outs are made, the Official Scorer according to Official Baseball Rule 9.01(b)(2) shall immediately inform the Umpire in Chief of the mistake. However, if the Official scorer fails to notify the Umpire in Chief or fails to have him notified before the first pitch starting the next half inning, the mistake can no longer be  corrected.

[Mudisfun]

20 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I say all this as kindly as I can.  If I were to interject myself into this situation with "time time" and kill it, then I would have the HC all over me and probably get a call from my Assignor asking why I did that - and rightfully so.

Assuming there is no other runners on base, you calling time is not killing anything. The batter is not eligible to become a runner with a now 3-2 count, so in effect you are enforcing the rules by putting him back in the box. Also, unless you were solo, your partner who I expect was in A position should be able to also kill this chicanery when the batter (notice not batter/runner) gets near 1st base. Each area is different, so when in Rome you do what your assigner wants, but where I officiate, there would be zero issues with getting this shut down or impacting future assignments by our assigner. If he even ever heard of this, I would be immensely surprised... 

Now runners on base? Let it ride... the defense is just as responsible to know the situation as the offense and often, this running to 1st on ball 3 is a planned play to catch the defense napping. Not my place there to get in the middle... let it play out.

 

[wolfe_man]

10 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

Assuming there is no other runners on base, you calling time is not killing anything. The batter is not eligible to become a runner with a now 3-2 count, so in effect you are enforcing the rules by putting him back in the box. Also, unless you were solo, your partner who I expect was in A position should be able to also kill this chicanery when the batter (notice not batter/runner) gets near 1st base. Each area is different, so when in Rome you do what your assigner wants, but where I officiate, there would be zero issues with getting this shut down or impacting future assignments by our assigner. If he even ever heard of this, I would be immensely surprised... 

Now runners on base? Let it ride... the defense is just as responsible to know the situation as the offense and often, this running to 1st on ball 3 is a planned play to catch the defense napping. Not my place there to get in the middle... let it play out.

 

I agree with both these scenarios and I think I'd be okay in my area if no runners on base and killing it since no harm/no foul.

In my example above though, there was an R1 and B/R's confusion led to R1 taking off for 2nd, so that's why I had to let it play out without killing it.  As little as the HC said at the time, it left me wondering if this wasn't the case as well (trying to steal a base easy and get R1 into scoring position).