2023 Annual NFHS Baseball Interpretations

[Richvee]

2 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Yep. I'm waiting (and been waiting a long time) for my first one on an uncaught third where the batter/runner is on his way back to the dugout but doesn't enter & f2 tosses the ball toward the unoccupied mound and they walk it off and BR goes to first and R3 scores to end the game. 

Always knew FED rule was the dugout on U3K. I thought abandonment was different.  

I had a similar occurrence on a U3K, just not with the batter heading off the field.  Years ago, I had the pleasure of umpiring an uncaught 3rd strike grand slam. Ball skipped away, I clearly held out my arms in a safe signal, F2 gathered the ball a few feet up the 3b line, and rolled  it out to the mound. All the runners ran, defense kept walking off the field as their coach kept yelling “that’s strike three, the inning’s over come on in guys.”  😂😂 fun times. 

[Thunderheads]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Always knew FED rule was the dugout on U3K. I thought abandonment was different.  

Hmmmm.... why am I thinking dirt circle? 

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Always knew FED rule was the dugout on U3K. I thought abandonment was different.  

I had a similar occurrence on a U3K, just not with the batter heading off the field.  Years ago, I had the pleasure of umpiring an uncaught 3rd strike grand slam. Ball skipped away, I clearly held out my arms in a safe signal, F2 gathered the ball a few feet up the 3b line, and rolled  it out to the mound. All the runners ran, defense kept walking off the field as their coach kept yelling “that’s strike three, the inning’s over come on in guys.”  😂😂 fun times. 

So... Let's play this out to the most ridiculous degree. B2 hits a ball into the outfield that is trapped, they round first base and head back to the dugout on the 3rd base side. On the way back to the dugout they pick up their bat, step on home plate, and then enter their dugout... So now do I have abandonment or do we now need an appeal of 2nd or 3rd base being missed and scoring a run until then?

[JSam21]

3 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Hmmmm.... why am I thinking dirt circle? 

Thats every other ruleset... FED gotta FED. 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

Hmmmm.... why am I thinking dirt circle? 

Rules difference. NCAA and OBR. Dirt circle. 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

So... Let's play this out to the most ridiculous degree. B2 hits a ball into the outfield that is trapped, they round first base and head back to the dugout on the 3rd base side. On the way back to the dugout they pick up their bat, step on home plate, and then enter their dugout... So now do I have abandonment or do we now need an appeal of 2nd or 3rd base being missed and scoring a run until then?

How about after he picks up the bat and touches home his dugout yells “ he trapped it!! Get back on the bases”. Does he need to retouch home , and third on his way to second?  🤪

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Yep. I'm waiting (and been waiting a long time) for my first one on an uncaught third where the batter/runner is on his way back to the dugout but doesn't enter & f2 tosses the ball toward the unoccupied mound and they walk it off and BR goes to first and R3 scores to end the game. 

I've not had that ... but I've had plenty of times when the batter walks away, the defense runs off the field, and my partner and I are still both standing in position watching ... watching ... watching ... watching ... and out.  Cue crowd laughter or somebody asking, "What was that?"

So ... evil "what if" situation (soon to appear in a Fed casebook near you) ... uncaught third strike.  Batter heads to the dugout, defense heads to the dugout but stops to huddle (illegally) before they go in.  Before batter enters the dugout, somebody gives him his hat and glove.  He turns and goes to his position at first base and touches the bag ... Do we send the defense back out and put the runner on first?  (Yes, I am being completely sarcastic with this, but I'm curious ...)

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, Richvee said:

Just noticed sit 11. So a BR hasn’t abandoned until he enters the dugout. Always though it was an appreciable distance toward his bench🤷‍♂️  

 

... and this is why I asked (guess it is in another thread) about the logic for the two different rules.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

... and this is why I asked (guess it is in another thread) about the logic for the two different rules.

Yes. It’s a new rules difference for me. Though all codes agreed here. Damn,  we need a new BRD. 

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I've not had that ... but I've had plenty of times when the batter walks away, the defense runs off the field, and my partner and I are still both standing in position watching ... watching ... watching ... watching ... and out.  Cue crowd laughter or somebody asking, "What was that?"

So ... evil "what if" situation (soon to appear in a Fed casebook near you) ... uncaught third strike.  Batter heads to the dugout, defense heads to the dugout but stops to huddle (illegally) before they go in.  Before batter enters the dugout, somebody gives him his hat and glove.  He turns and goes to his position at first base and touches the bag ... Do we send the defense back out and put the runner on first?  (Yes, I am being completely sarcastic with this, but I'm curious ...)

If the infielders leave the diamond, it's too late for the BR to advance.  8-4-1i

[JSam21]

12 hours ago, noumpere said:

If the infielders leave the diamond, it's too late for the BR to advance.  8-4-1i

So... is it enter the dugout or cross the line? I mean if they haven't entered the dugout...

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

So... is it enter the dugout or cross the line? I mean if they haven't entered the dugout...

Here's the rule: 

 

[wolfe_man]

54 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Here's the rule: 

 

What we are told is if there is no dugout, then when they leave the playing field (cross the line that separates field from players equipment/bench area) then they would be out as it was clear they did not intend to attempt to advance.

[johnnyg08]

4 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

What we are told is if there is no dugout, then when they leave the playing field (cross the line that separates field from players equipment/bench area) then they would be out as it was clear they did not intend to attempt to advance.

I agree with that...which also seems very defensible. 

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, noumpere said:

If the infielders leave the diamond, it's too late for the BR to advance.  8-4-1i

True, but practically speaking this will never happen.

The infielders will START leaving the field, but once the BR sees that F3 has abandoned his post, B/R is going to first.   F3 and F4 are not going to get to foul territory, on their way to the third base dugout, before B/R resumes his advancement to first base.

Opposite dugouts may be a bit trickier, but even there, by the time F5/F6 pass the ball rolling back to the mound, they're still in fair territory, BR can make a move to first before anyone really realizes what's going on.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

True, but practically speaking this will never happen.

The infielders will START leaving the field, but once the BR sees that F3 has abandoned his post, B/R is going to first.   F3 and F4 are not going to get to foul territory, on their way to the third base dugout, before B/R resumes his advancement to first base.

Opposite dugouts may be a bit trickier, but even there, by the time F5/F6 pass the ball rolling back to the mound, they're still in fair territory, BR can make a move to first before anyone really realizes what's going on.

I was only addressing ManInBlue's ridiculous situation

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

I was only addressing ManInBlue's ridiculous situation

It absolutely is ridiculous!  That's the point.  Using two different standards for the batter runner versus a runner causes unnecessary conflict.  My argument is that once he heads to the dugout and does not make an immediate effort, we should be able to call him out and move on with our day.

8-4-1i says he must enter the dugout or if he does not attempt to advance before the defense leaves ... he was moving towards first base before the defense left the field.  (Yes, I know this is ridiculous, but by rule ... it is also no less ridiculous that a number of other third-world-banished-to-purgatory-hellish-nightmare situations Fed has addressed.)

PS ... don't forget the team warning for removing his helmet.  😉

[The Man in Blue]

7 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

What we are told is if there is no dugout, then when they leave the playing field (cross the line that separates field from players equipment/bench area) then they would be out as it was clear they did not intend to attempt to advance.

It was clear LONG before that ... 😁

[noumpere]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

It absolutely is ridiculous!  That's the point.  Using two different standards for the batter runner versus a runner causes unnecessary conflict.  My argument is that once he heads to the dugout and does not make an immediate effort, we should be able to call him out and move on with our day.

8-4-1i says he must enter the dugout or if he does not attempt to advance before the defense leaves ... he was moving towards first base before the defense left the field.  (Yes, I know this is ridiculous, but by rule ... it is also no less ridiculous that a number of other third-world-banished-to-purgatory-hellish-nightmare situations Fed has addressed.)

PS ... don't forget the team warning for removing his helmet.  😉

iirc (and I recognize that I might not), one or more annual rules surveys included a question on this shortly after OBR and then NCAA changed the rule to "dirt circle) (before that, they were essentially the same as FED). Don't knwo why it wasn't implemented.

 

There is a process to propose rules changes, and anyone can start the process.

[The Man in Blue]

29 minutes ago, noumpere said:

There is a process to propose rules changes, and anyone can start the process.

 

WARNING: SARCASM USED AS HUMOR

I have already handwritten it into my casebook and sent several e-mails to people so that the e-mails may be quoted 10 years from now in a self-published out-of-print book that was handed out in a local Eastern Northwestern Umpires of the South Association meeting and put into a Powerpoint that was used at a Umpire Brotherhood Living In North Dakota (UBLIND) meeting.  Now it's a rule, baby!

😉  That is how it works, right?

[concertman1971]

On 3/16/2023 at 6:44 PM, Richvee said:

Yes. It’s a new rules difference for me. Though all codes agreed here. Damn,  we need a new BRD. 

100% on the new BRD. I still reference my 2016 (last) version. I treat that thing like gold. Even though some interps have changed, the case book/letters/official interps has come in handy. 

[JSam21]

On 3/17/2023 at 7:54 AM, johnnyg08 said:

Here's the rule: 

 

Does the NFHS define "The Diamond"? Is it the crossing the foul lines or entering the dugout?

 

[The Man in Blue]

23 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Does the NFHS define "The Diamond"? Is it the crossing the foul lines or entering the dugout?

 

1-2-1

[The Man in Blue]

On 3/19/2023 at 2:17 PM, concertman1971 said:

100% on the new BRD. I still reference my 2016 (last) version. I treat that thing like gold. Even though some interps have changed, the case book/letters/official interps has come in handy. 

 

Now that I have summers off ...

Except I don't have the contacts and y'all don't like the fact that I prefer things to be actually written in a rule.  😉

[johnnyg08]

I'm fairly certain the enters the dugout interpretation has been around for a long time. It's hardly new.