Dropped ball after force out

[Guest Guest Wade]

OBR modified for DYB

I think I blew this.  Force play at second.  Shortstop stretches for the catch.  After the catch, shortstop loses balance and falls. When he hits the ground, ball comes out of his glove.   (Definitely not a voluntary release.) I called "out" because it appeared he had secure possession with his foot on the base with the throw clearly beating the runner.  I know that would not be a catch of a fly ball and my thinking was a thrown ball was treated differently.  I made the call too quickly.  Did I miss this?

[maven]

Correct call. A fielder must demonstrate possession throughout the tag, which ended when he came off the base. 

The standard for TAG is not the same as that for CATCH. As you point out, a catch requires secure possession in hand/glove and voluntary release.

All the same, for sounder mechanics, slow down and process all the info. I'd see the ball out after he fell, step toward the base and point (left hand), selling "He's out (right hand)! That's a tag!"

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 537, pp. 348-349), Jim Evans defines the term tag this way:

Authoritative Opinion:  Jim Evans:  In establishing the validity of secure possession at the time of a tag, the umpire should determine that the player held the ball long enough and did not juggle the ball or momentarily lose possession before gaining full control and touching the runner. Unlike a catch, a legal tag is based on the status of the ball at the time the runner or base is touched and not on the final proof of possession. (JEA/ 2:40)

OBR only. Tag of a base. The batter hits a ground ball to the first baseman. He fields it to the covering pitcher. The pitcher has the ball securely in his glove and steps on the base as BR runs into his back, knocking him down. When he hits the ground, the ball pops out of his glove. Ruling:  Successful tag and BR is out. The tag of the base was proved the moment that it was touched and the momentum of the tagging action ended. BR caused the ball to be knocked out after the tag had already been proved.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 537, pp. 348-349), Jim Evans defines the term tag this way:

Authoritative Opinion:  Jim Evans:  In establishing the validity of secure possession at the time of a tag, the umpire should determine that the player held the ball long enough and did not juggle the ball or momentarily lose possession before gaining full control and touching the runner. Unlike a catch, a legal tag is based on the status of the ball at the time the runner or base is touched and not on the final proof of possession. (JEA/ 2:40)

OBR only. Tag of a base. The batter hits a ground ball to the first baseman. He fields it to the covering pitcher. The pitcher has the ball securely in his glove and steps on the base as BR runs into his back, knocking him down. When he hits the ground, the ball pops out of his glove. Ruling:  Successful tag and BR is out. The tag of the base was proved the moment that it was touched and the momentum of the tagging action ended. BR caused the ball to be knocked out after the tag had already been proved.

Would this be in your BRD because it would not be a tag in NCAA?

[Guest Guest Wade]

Thanks all.  I was doubting myself.  I did call it too quickly though.

 

[Velho]

This play seems to go the other way. Unfortunately, we we didn't get to see a replay review.

 

[Lou B]

Even the big boys make mistakes!

[Thunderheads]

34 minutes ago, Lou B said:

Even the big boys make mistakes!

At full speed, ...heck yes ... I can see why Knight called him safe.  IF, the replay was allowed to happen, it would have been overturned.

[Thunderheads]

On 5/7/2022 at 6:13 PM, Jimurray said:

Would this be in your BRD because it would not be a tag in NCAA?

 Can you cite that, please? (asking honestly, not being a jerk)

[Jimurray]

44 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

 Can you cite that, please? (asking honestly, not being a jerk)

@Senor Azul would have to post that complete BRD interp about a tag. But I think Arbiter had an interp from NCAA when an F3 tripped over 1B before the runner and dropped the ball upon hitting the ground. I think NCAA has that as safe. But one cite would be from the NCAA rule book regarding body control: 

"Tag

SECTION 78. The action of a fielder in touching a base with any part of the body while holding the ball securely and firmly in the hand or glove or touching a runner with the ball or with the glove while holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone) securely and firmly in that hand or glove. For the purposes of this definition any jewelry being worn by a player (e.g., necklaces, bracelets, etc.) shall not constitute a part of the player's body. The fielder shall maintain or regain control of his body and if he drops the ball due to his lack of body control or control of the ball, it is not a tag. A voluntary and intentional release is substantive proof of complete control."

[Thunderheads]

10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

@Senor Azul would have to post that complete BRD interp about a tag. But I think Arbiter had an interp from NCAA when an F3 tripped over 1B before the runner and dropped the ball upon hitting the ground. I think NCAA has that as safe. But one cite would be from the NCAA rule book regarding body control: 

"Tag

SECTION 78. The action of a fielder in touching a base with any part of the body while holding the ball securely and firmly in the hand or glove or touching a runner with the ball or with the glove while holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone) securely and firmly in that hand or glove. For the purposes of this definition any jewelry being worn by a player (e.g., necklaces, bracelets, etc.) shall not constitute a part of the player's body. The fielder shall maintain or regain control of his body and if he drops the ball due to his lack of body control or control of the ball, it is not a tag. A voluntary and intentional release is substantive proof of complete control."

Looks as though the Phillies play last night would stand as a safe in NCAA based on SECTION 78 posted above.

FED however, ... has different definitions, one of for 'force out' and one for 'tag out'

2-24-1   A force-out is a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing (9-1-1 for special case.)

2-24-4   A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder (8-4-2h2).

But, ... only the 'tag out' has a descriptor for 'securely held' ...

[The Man in Blue]

@Thunderheads ... I disagree that the lack of a "descriptor" in one case but not the other necessarily makes it an either/or situation.  The same standard is applicable in my mind.

In that Phillies play, the ball was clearly secured until the runner hit his glove.  It didn't move when we swung his arm.  While the runner did not do it deliberately, the runner was the sole cause of the ball coming out of his glove.

[Replacematt]

15 hours ago, Jimurray said:

@Senor Azul would have to post that complete BRD interp about a tag. But I think Arbiter had an interp from NCAA when an F3 tripped over 1B before the runner and dropped the ball upon hitting the ground. I think NCAA has that as safe. But one cite would be from the NCAA rule book regarding body control: 

"Tag

SECTION 78. The action of a fielder in touching a base with any part of the body while holding the ball securely and firmly in the hand or glove or touching a runner with the ball or with the glove while holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone) securely and firmly in that hand or glove. For the purposes of this definition any jewelry being worn by a player (e.g., necklaces, bracelets, etc.) shall not constitute a part of the player's body. The fielder shall maintain or regain control of his body and if he drops the ball due to his lack of body control or control of the ball, it is not a tag. A voluntary and intentional release is substantive proof of complete control."

While I hate that they define it under Catch (2-16,) here's what is included in voluntary release:

"Only two circumstances may be interpreted as creating a voluntary and intentional release.
1) When the momentum of the catch is complete; i.e., the fielder has reversed his direction and is running the ball back toward the infield or;
2) When the fielder is reaching for the ball to make a throw."

I personally feel there is little difference between OBR and NCAA from a functional standpoint.

[Thunderheads]

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I disagree that the lack of a "descriptor" in one case but not the other necessarily makes it an either/or situation.  The same standard is applicable in my mind.

That's fine, but 2 different scenarios, 2 different rule numbers.

 

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

In that Phillies play, the ball was clearly secured until the runner hit his glove.  It didn't move when we swung his arm.  While the runner did not do it deliberately, the runner was the sole cause of the ball coming out of his glove.

Yes.  I have no issues w/ the Phillies play, and that if the review were to have been allowed, it would have been overturned as an out.

ODDLY ENOUGH... I had a similar play on a force out at second last night.  F6 came over to catch and touch 2nd, but had to crouch down low to get the ball and touch the bag just as R1 came in sliding (legally), and they made pretty significant contact.  F6 rolled over in pain, dropped his mitt from his hand thus the ball dropped out.  I gave the "he's out, he's out, he's still out" signal/mechanic.   Pain is a voluntary release  

[Jimurray]

12 hours ago, Matt said:

While I hate that they define it under Catch (2-16,) here's what is included in voluntary release:

"Only two circumstances may be interpreted as creating a voluntary and intentional release.
1) When the momentum of the catch is complete; i.e., the fielder has reversed his direction and is running the ball back toward the infield or;
2) When the fielder is reaching for the ball to make a throw."

I personally feel there is little difference between OBR and NCAA from a functional standpoint.

Carl Childress did feel that there was a difference between some OBR authorities, other than Roder, and NCAA rule makers who, he believed, heeded Roder.

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

That's fine, but 2 different scenarios, 2 different rule numbers.

 

I think that is what I was getting at an maybe saying it poorly ... the different rule numbers are for different plays, not different standards.  If that makes sense.  😁

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I think that is what I was getting at an maybe saying it poorly ... the different rule numbers are for different plays, not different standards.  If that makes sense.  😁

it does...I would just think that a place like NFHS would be as detailed as possible wherever they could.  Hell, who knows LOL!