Kicking the bucket

[BLWizzRanger]

Fed rules.  Doesn't matter situation other than one team is mad they didn't get a call.  My partner and I didn't remove the buckets from the field because I didn't notice them until the 3rd inning and we had a good mojo going on.  Both teams had a bucket and the coaches were outside of the dugout during live balls.  Dugouts are far removed in foul territory too.  I did make a player move back into the dugout with the bucket when I saw him sitting on it outside of the dugout.  Maybe a little inconsistent.

So the pitch call goes against the team (that didn't have an issue with the pitch being called there the entire night).  The bucket is either thrown or kicked back into the dugout.  I notice it as well as parents for the other team. The parents are the ones saying he kicked it. I don't warn but do look 5-10 seconds in that direction.  Two pitches later I warn the coaches about complaining on a pitch.  The complaining didn't start happening until that inning (7th in a tight game).

What is your tolerance in this situation?

[Thunderheads]

26 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

So the pitch call goes against the team (that didn't have an issue with the pitch being called there the entire night).  The bucket is either thrown or kicked back into the dugout.  I notice it as well as parents for the other team. The parents are the ones saying he kicked it. I don't warn but do look 5-10 seconds in that direction.  Two pitches later I warn the coaches about complaining on a pitch.  The complaining didn't start happening until that inning (7th in a tight game).

What is your tolerance in this situation?

Two pitches later you warn them .... about what?  After the 'bucket kick' there was verbal complaining?

[wolfe_man]

My two cents here, unless it's really obvious, then I'm letting it go.  It's the 7th inning and I'm going to focus on what's happening between the lines of the game at that point unless I have to get involved.  Obviously, I wasn't there so I might be missing something vital or not reading it correctly in what's been shared in the OP, but I don't see the need to do the death stare or warn them at that point. 

Now, if they are arguing balls/strikes, then get serious with it and make it the verbal warning (maybe what you meant by warning them) so your warning has some teeth in it.  That way, the next time you can restrict or eject if it is prolonged or personal, but you want to use your steps to moving this along.   But if a coach whines about a call in his dugout or makes some noise, I'm probably letting it slide unless I felt that he is directing it towards me or my partner. 

The bucket kick may, or may not, have been in regards to the pitch call.  You didn't see it you said, so I'd be careful jumping to conclusions. Sometimes the umpire ego comes out a bit too quick (in all of us) and we assume that they're meaning something towards us when maybe they're mad about something else entirely.   Maybe the batter missed his sign and didn't bunt when he should have, R1 didn't steal or a million other things... including that he wanted that call and didn't get it.  

I know some might say I'm delaying the inevitable or being non-confrontational, but I think personality comes to play in this sometimes too.   It doesn't mean you're right or wrong if you handled it differently.  The main thing is that you don't let them walk over you or disrespect the profession or you personally.  Many times knowing when to amplify a situation and when to ignore it takes time and experience.

[SH0102]

Have to agree with Wolfeman....I am not ejecting for something I didn't see (I know you didn't eject, but it is in the ejections section so rolling with it).

I had a college game earlier this season where I struck a kid out (called strike 3) and I hear the head coach, who is coaching 3rd, start cussing and raising his voice.

Good thing I didn't warn or eject him because as he is walking by, he proceeds to tell me what an idiot his kid is for taking that pitch and that he is subbing him out bc he is pissed at him.

We get yelled at enough for a variety of things, but as Wolfe said, not everything is about us, so don't rush to judgment.  If they just kick the bucket but say nothing to us, I am ignoring it.  Probably is about me or my call, but maybe it isn't.

As for consistency, coaches shouldn't be sitting out of the dugouts either, but I am willing to let them have more rope than a player, especially depending on size of the dugout and so forth.  Many schools want social distancing in the dugouts, so if having a coach or two just outside it lets the kids stay in it as desired, I am fine with that (for now until COVID stuff goes away)  Ignoring the coach and making player move is not inconsistent.  Making one player move and another not would be.

And never take what parents say from the stands for anything...if warn/restrict/eject and your report has to say "the parents said...", you will be in hot water.

[BLWizzRanger]

Yes, the verbal warning was due to their amplification of complaints on balls and strikes.  Mind you, there was a chirp here and there or questions to their catcher throughout the game that I brushed off as normal chatter.  Their 7th inning comments and chirping did escalate to where I finally needed to put a stop to it.  And it did with the warning.  And, the timing and situation of the bucket kicking was due to them not getting a pitch they needed - nothing else.

I didn't say it because I wanted to see where everyone's line was since it shouldn't really matter the situation - the coach demonstrated disagreement to a call by kicking a bucket sitting in live territory into the dugout vice *hidden* in the dugout  I can see a distinction there (in or out of the dugout onto the field). Anyways, this was the DC in the bottom of seventh with a 2 run lead.  R2 and R3 with one out.It was no doubt a 'high leverage' situation.

[Vegas_Ump]

Do league or ground rules allow the buckets on the field?  If not, clear this up in the top of the first inning.  Should not be allowed to happen in the first place.  If they are allowed, discuss at the plate conference what's allowed and where.  Make sure you let them know you are watching.

Kicking the  bucket of balls for disgust at a call is grounds for ejection for UC. 

Mike

Las Vegas

[Dottelife]

If I had a dollar for every time I told a coach to get his bucket off the field and heard no one has ever enforced that I would be rich. It’s a pet peeve for me to get off the field. 

[ErichKeane]

6 minutes ago, Dottelife said:

If I had a dollar for every time I told a coach to get his bucket off the field and heard no one has ever enforced that I would be rich. It’s a pet peeve for me to get off the field. 

NFHS is doing a point of emphasis on the buckets this year! I had a set of 3 pratice games on Saturday that was NFHS rules, but my partner opted to let the coaches keep their buckets.  I made sure to emphasize to the coaches that absolutely no players would be allowed out of the dugout with them.  Fortunately all the teams followed THAT guidance.  I disagreed with my partner on enforcing the rule, but he was UIC/PU, and much more experienced than me (Gave me the BEST 2 man tutorial I could have asked for, and overall a fantastic guy to work with).

[SeeingEyeDog]

@ErichKeaneis on this. I'm going to amp it further...

Every year the NFHS puts points of emphasis in the rule book and every year my association covers these in our pre-season meetings. Allegedly, the local HS coaches are also supposed to get some presentations on this from NFHS but, the lack of compliance would not be in agreement that that is happening...or the coaches simply don't care what the points of emphasis are.

I used to hold HS plate meetings and sternly emphasize that season's points of emphasis until finally a sage partner of mine reminded me the plate conference is not a TED Talk of NFHS rules...Now, I just look over the points of emphasis and pick the one that I feel represents the biggest departure from previous rules, customs and or practices and or the one point of emphasis that most of the coaches are struggling to adhere to and just briefly mention that one. This year it was Sitting on Buckets (Coaches), point 3 on page 67. Mind you, none of this early reinforcement had any positive impact on the coaches' collectively deciding not to do it, it was just a helpful conversation starter for later..."Coach, as we discussed at the plate meeting, your coaches cannot sit outside the dugout on buckets. They need to remain in the dugout along with all equipment and buckets." And that has been typically the end of it.

~Dawg

[ArchAngel72]

I Get LL coaches skirting the line all the time trying to park their butt out side the dugout.

 

I will let them stand there in the opening just outside it But a bucket HELL NO.

 

[Mudisfun]

I haven't had the bucket issue in HS or LL this season, but all the time in PONY and travel ball. I was working a 12U tournament game earlier this year and at the plate meeting noticed the VT was already setting up their coaching stations outside the dugout. Right there at the plate meeting told both HC's that unless they are occupying a coaches box on offense, that all players, coaches, equipment and yes, buckets need to be in the dugout. Told them no issue with them in the dugout opening on a bucket, but they need to be on concrete and not the infield dirt. Get the no problem head nod from both sides and we move on.

Top of 1st and the HT assistant coach who was not at the plate meeting wants to be out of the dugout to position his players the whole time, because of course he cannot do this from the 2nd opening of the dugout... I tell the HC that we need them all in, which they comply, but I hear the AC complaining to the HC 'what, I'm restricted to the dugout'? This is PONY and 'restricted' is a HS term, so I'm ready for a conflict. HT going on offense and this coach moving to take the 3rd base box asks snidely if he can be outside coaching in the box which of course I reply 'if your the base coach, of course, have at it.'

End of the inning and I grab the AC on his way back to the dugout. Tell him that apparently we got started off on the wrong foot and that he is not restricted to the dugout, but that he and all of the coaches need to be inside the dugout during live play. He is welcome to be in the doorway, etc... This is where it gets just awesome; remember, this is a 12U PONY game...

'Kevin, I'm going to pull two trump cards on you here (swear, this came out of his mouth). One, I need to be out so that I can position my players and two, I am the HC for XYZ super famous high end HS (and yes, he really is) and I need to be out to do my job."

Deep breath.

Coach... couple things. 1) If you really need to position your players that badly, take a step out between pitches, position the player and then step back into the opening, just like every single other coach. 2) You being outside when we have instructed all the other coaches to be in looks like favoritism if we allow it, especially since most know who you are (hell, you're making sure EVERYONE knows your the HC for XYZ kick butt HS). 3) You may think that using your 'trump card' (whatever you think that is) makes you look good, but in reality, I find it amusing that instead of being the one leading by example, especially considering your pedigree, you are in fact demonstrating a lack of respect for the direction of the umpires, the playing rules and the other teams who are complying with these instructions. I really just need your compliance by not being out of the dugout, can you help me by setting the example?

All of this conversation took place in 30 seconds, was completely conversational and not heated at all. But the look on his face when I made the last point was gold. The reality here is he is the HC, just not in name, and he expected that based on his HS resume that he could and would get special treatment. Many of the umpires at this tournament would have given him special treatment because all of us who are HS guys know who he is. 

Bottom line... address these issues early before they become something big later in the game.