Ground rules question

[aaluck]

NFHS rules.  Hopefully I can explain this so it makes sense.

Field has your typical above ground dugout.  Opening is about eight feet high and about 20-25 feet across--very similar to the stock photo below.  About three feet in front of the opening there are two chest-high nets, held in place by padded poles, each about eight feet long that cover most of the opening, with a 'hole' in the middle so you can come or go either on the sides or in the middle.

Going through the ground rules coach wants to play everything off the net, no problem.  He also wants to play everything that hits the top facing of the dugout opening (which would be the white part in the photo, behind the nets) that comes back on the field over the nets.

Can you do this?  Can you have live ground behind dead ground?

 

Edit;;;;  Found a better picture thats nearly identical

[Thunderheads]

So?

if it bounces into play, play it?  Right?  As long as both teams are clear on that, it shouldn't be a problem

[JonnyCat]

We have very similar situations at many of the High Schools in our area. All of them have the ball live and in play if it hits the wood/block/whatever.

Very common ground rule in our area. Never had an issue.

[aaluck]

51 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

So?

if it bounces into play, play it?  Right?  As long as both teams are clear on that, it shouldn't be a problem

 

41 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

We have very similar situations at many of the High Schools in our area. All of them have the ball live and in play if it hits the wood/block/whatever.

Very common ground rule in our area. Never had an issue.

I guess that is correct.  I just didn't know if there was a rule that prevented such a ground rule.

Ill give maybe a better example.  If a pole is in the dugout and it hits that pole and bounces back in play, It's my understanding that is always dead.

Would you guys change your opinion if a ball hits the bench in the dugout and bounces back in, can that be live.

I'm just hung up with live territory behind dead territory.  

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, aaluck said:

 

I guess that is correct.  I just didn't know if there was a rule that prevented such a ground rule.

Ill give maybe a better example.  If a pole is in the dugout and it hits that pole and bounces back in play, It's my understanding that is always dead.

Would you guys change your opinion if a ball hits the bench in the dugout and bounces back in, can that be live.

I'm just hung up with live territory behind dead territory.  

We usually just play the facing, or fascia board of the dugout as live and in play. Some of the dugouts are constructed of block, and some parts of the block wall that faces the field are usually in play, too.

If the ball goes into the dugout and hits the back wall, or the bench, or anything else in the dugout proper, then it's a dead ball. It's just a matter of what you're defining as dead or live ball territory.

I just think of it as being a chain link fence covering the dugouts in many of the fields today. If it bounces off the chain link and stays in play, live ball. If it penetrates into the dugout, then dead ball.

Hope that makes sense.

[MadMax]

4 hours ago, aaluck said:

About three feet in front of the opening there are two chest-high nets, held in place by padded poles, each about eight feet long that cover most of the opening, with a 'hole' in the middle so you can come or go either on the sides or in the middle.

That's known as a "half wall", "pony wall" or "knee wall" (knee walls typically have a countertop or hand-rail atop them). As a baseball guy, I much prefer the look and function of a pony wall instead of a chain-link fence completely encasing the dugout. 

Fascia boards are typically Live; you just observe and judge the carom. Remember, it'll only be on a thrown ball where this matters, and the frequency of this happening is remote. 

[Mudisfun]

We have some HS fields in OC that play the facia as live and some which play it as dead. I really can care less which flavor they chose today. As @MadMaxsaid above, the frequency of a ball actually hitting that space and an actual ruling happening is remote. I have yet to have it happen in almost 15 years of officiating. It's their field, they make the ground rules. 

Play the bounce.

[Velho]

51 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

I have yet to have it happen in almost 15 years of officiating.

funny anecdote: local LL field redid their OF fence with a gap just over 3" between the top of the chainlink and the yellow pipe fence topper. Game one, opening day, UIC has plate and tells coaches "hey, this is there but not a real issue, ha ha". Welp, guess who won the pony? That game, ball on the fly goes right through it the gap. D'oh!

[Mudisfun]

4 hours ago, Velho said:

funny anecdote: local LL field redid their OF fence with a gap just over 3" between the top of the chainlink and the yellow pipe fence topper. Game one, opening day, UIC has plate and tells coaches "hey, this is there but not a real issue, ha ha". Welp, guess who won the pony? That game, ball on the fly goes right through it the gap. D'oh!

I always chuckle at the plate when a coach when going over the ground rules mentions some hole somewhere and the 'it's never happened, but...' 

Kind of like saying out loud in the 5th inning how fast and smooth this game is going. Why tempt fate?

[beerguy55]

On 4/11/2022 at 10:53 AM, aaluck said:

 

Can you do this?  Can you have live ground behind dead ground?

 

 

Old Tiger  Stadium had this in right field - the upper deck had about a ten foot overhang over the homerun fence/warning track.

Polo Grounds overhang was even bigger.

[Velho]

29 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Old Tiger  Stadium had this in right field - the upper deck had about a ten foot overhang over the homerun fence/warning track.

Polo Grounds overhang was even bigger.

The deck hung over fair territory? Was it a live or dead ball area?

[beerguy55]

27 minutes ago, Velho said:

The deck hung over fair territory? Was it a live or dead ball area?

Yup - hungover the homerun fence in fair territory.  If the ball hit the facing of upper deck, it was a homerun...but if it was hit at the right angle it could miss the upper deck and land (or be caught) at the base of the wall on the warning track, under the overhang.   Here's one pic I found....that's Tiger Stadium in RF, looking towards center field.

Many times a F9  would be parked on the track ready to catch a "can of corn" only for it to drop into the first row of the upper deck.

[Dottelife]

Learned this the hard way when I first started umping. Rec league game coach pitch working by myself, had plate as I walk away HT coach says hey rule on overthrow is ball is dead and player gets next base, can we just play no dead ball and anything goes? I say as long as other coach is ok with it idc. Go to VT coach and he says sure works for me. Sure enough last inning 2 out his player hits ground ball and overthrow at first, ball get picked up and he is gunned out at third. Here comes VT coach saying no the rules say one base, stood there stunned he would use this tactic. Long story short I called ballgame and coach lost it screaming I was lying and just cheated his team. League director called his buddy who is a coach on VT and he admits we agreed to the rule modification. So lesson learned and never again will I ever modify a rule trying to be a nice guy. 

[Catch18]

Learned this the hard way when I first started umping. Rec league game coach pitch working by myself, had plate as I walk away HT coach says hey rule on overthrow is ball is dead and player gets next base, can we just play no dead ball and anything goes? I say as long as other coach is ok with it idc. Go to VT coach and he says sure works for me. Sure enough last inning 2 out his player hits ground ball and overthrow at first, ball get picked up and he is gunned out at third. Here comes VT coach saying no the rules say one base, stood there stunned he would use this tactic. Long story short I called ballgame and coach lost it screaming I was lying and just cheated his team. League director called his buddy who is a coach on VT and he admits we agreed to the rule modification. So lesson learned and never again will I ever modify a rule trying to be a nice guy. 

You didn’t get it in writing, that’s why it didn’t happen

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/15/2022 at 11:53 PM, Dottelife said:

Learned this the hard way when I first started umping. Rec league game coach pitch working by myself, had plate as I walk away HT coach says hey rule on overthrow is ball is dead and player gets next base, can we just play no dead ball and anything goes? I say as long as other coach is ok with it idc. Go to VT coach and he says sure works for me. Sure enough last inning 2 out his player hits ground ball and overthrow at first, ball get picked up and he is gunned out at third. Here comes VT coach saying no the rules say one base, stood there stunned he would use this tactic. Long story short I called ballgame and coach lost it screaming I was lying and just cheated his team. League director called his buddy who is a coach on VT and he admits we agreed to the rule modification. So lesson learned and never again will I ever modify a rule trying to be a nice guy. 

 

I may be wrong, but I would say that is NOT a ground rule modification.  A ground rule would be defining where/when a ball is out of play (e.g., fence extended straight out or an imaginary line from the fence back to the funny looking pine tree in right field), not deciding you want to do something different than a written rule.