NFHS 2022 Rule 3.1.1 Illegal Sub

[Guest Rky Mtn Ref]

Quote

 

Rule 3.1.1 states that discovery of an illegal substitute must be made prior to the first pitch to next batter by either team.  Case book (2022 rules) #3.1.1, situation G; it says there's an illegal sub on 2nd base.  Then there's a pitch to B4 who hits a HR; doesn't that pitch legalize the illegal sub?  He was on base prior to the next pitch.  The ruling allows the appeal to carry to the pitch before the batter following B4.

[Tborze]

2 hours ago, Guest Rky Mtn Ref said:

Rule 3.1.1 states that discovery of an illegal substitute must be made prior to the first pitch to next batter by either team.  Case book (2022 rules) #3.1.1, situation G; it says there's an illegal sub on 2nd base.  Then there's a pitch to B4 who hits a HR; doesn't that pitch legalize the illegal sub?  He was on base prior to the next pitch.  The ruling allows the appeal to carry to the pitch before the batter following B4.

You didn’t quote the first part of the rule!  

[Tborze]

If the player should score, advance etc…

In G the illegal sub scored.  Appeal must be made before the next pitch.  IOW directly after the play the illegal sub was involved in to negate his actions. 

ex: R2. Illegal sub hits safely scoring R2. Appeal must be made prior to…to negate the run. 

Any time an illegal sub is discovered on the bases, he is out and restricted. 

[Guest Rky mtn ref]

I understand appeal must be made immediately after the play.  Wasn't the immediate play the play that put the illegal sub @ 2nd base (maybe he hit a dbl); the next play was B4 hitting a HR.

[ousafe]

Conflating illegal sub and BOO?

[Tborze]

2 hours ago, Guest Rky mtn ref said:

I understand appeal must be made immediately after the play.  Wasn't the immediate play the play that put the illegal sub @ 2nd base (maybe he hit a dbl); the next play was B4 hitting a HR.

Each play is a play!  
Illegal sub hits a dbl to score R3. Not recognized (appealed) prior to the next pitch to B4.  That solidifies the run scored.  

The next pitch, B4 hits HR.
R2 now recognized. He was involved in the play.  R2 is out and restricted.  If less than two outs the HR counts. 
If NOT recognized before the NEXT pitch his run would score. 
 

Making sense?


 

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Guest Rky mtn ref said:

I understand appeal must be made immediately after the play.  Wasn't the immediate play the play that put the illegal sub @ 2nd base (maybe he hit a dbl); the next play was B4 hitting a HR.

As long as there's an illegal sub on base, the defense can appeal.  When the illegal sub leaves the bases (in this example, scores), NOW the defense must appeal before the next pitch.

[maven]

12 hours ago, noumpere said:

As long as there's an illegal sub on base, the defense can appeal.  When the illegal sub leaves the bases (in this example, scores), NOW the defense must appeal before the next pitch.

As a clarification of the case play, where the illegal sub is a runner, this is fine.

The rule is a bit more complicated, as illegal subs can be in the game on offense (on base OR at bat) as well as on defense.

Any time illegal subs are in the game and on the field, they can be appealed. If in the game and they leave the field (scored or out, say), or if they're replaced (by a re-entering starter or another sub), the opponent has until the next pitch to appeal.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Any time illegal subs are in the game and on the field, they can be appealed.

When are they "in the game?"   Once the ball has been made live?  Do we need to wait for a pitch?  I'm thinking for these scenarios where the illegal sub is:

• A fielder at beginning of an inning, there through pitcher warmups, still there as pitcher gets ready to throw first pitch  (or even a mid-inning sub - for injury perhaps)
• A batter entering the box at any time (ball may or may not be live when he does so)
• A substitute base runner 

 

[noumpere]

27 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

When are they "in the game?"   Once the ball has been made live?  Do we need to wait for a pitch?  I'm thinking for these scenarios where the illegal sub is:

 

Specified right in the rule book (which I don't have handy at the moment).  Something like "when announced.  If not announced, when the ball is made live."  Some specific differences for pitchers and batters, iirc

[Senor Azul]

Here is the actual text from the FED rule book that supports what has already been posted and answers the question posed by our guest (also Mr. beerguy55’s question)—

2019 NFHS rule 3-1-1

…In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief. Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:

a. a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced,

b. a pitcher takes his place on the pitcher’s plate,

c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, or

d. a batter takes his place in the batter’s box.

…If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance, discovery must be made by an umpire or either team before the first pitch to the next batter of either team. This would invalidate the action of the illegal offensive player. Any out(s) made on the play stands and all other runners return to the base(s) occupied at the time of the pitch.

In a game-ending situation, discovery must be made before all infielders leave the diamond (i.e., all infielders cross the foul lines).

An illegal player on defense shall be replaced immediately upon discovery by the umpire or either team. If an illegal player on defense is involved in a play, and the infraction is discovered by an umpire or either team prior to the first pitch to the next batter of either team, the team on offense has the option to let the play stand or to allow the batter to bat again…

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Here is the actual text from the FED rule book that supports what has already been posted and answers the question posed by our guest (also Mr. beerguy55’s question)—

2019 NFHS rule 3-1-1

…In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief. Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:

a. a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced,

b. a pitcher takes his place on the pitcher’s plate,

c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, or

d. a batter takes his place in the batter’s box.

…If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance, discovery must be made by an umpire or either team before the first pitch to the next batter of either team. This would invalidate the action of the illegal offensive player. Any out(s) made on the play stands and all other runners return to the base(s) occupied at the time of the pitch.

In a game-ending situation, discovery must be made before all infielders leave the diamond (i.e., all infielders cross the foul lines).

An illegal player on defense shall be replaced immediately upon discovery by the umpire or either team. If an illegal player on defense is involved in a play, and the infraction is discovered by an umpire or either team prior to the first pitch to the next batter of either team, the team on offense has the option to let the play stand or to allow the batter to bat again…

The rule verbiage requires you to surmise a little bit but Steve the Ump's record of interps makes it clear:

2006 NFHS Interps

"SITUATION 18: With a runner on first and the pitcher struggling in the top of the fifth inning, S1 comes to the mound and begins to throw his warm-up pitches. His coach announces to the plate umpire the change, who marks it on his lineup card and announces to the home scorekeeper. After only four warm-up pitches, the defensive coach decides he wants a different player to pitch. The visiting coach argues that since the ball had not yet been made live, the substitution had not been made and he can change his mind. RULING: Once the umpire-in-chief has accepted the change, marked it on his lineup and announced the change, the substitution is in effect. The substitute pitcher must pitch until the batter then at bat, or any substitute for that batter, is put out or reaches first base, or until a third out has been made. Therefore, the coach cannot change his substitute pitcher until the pitching conditions have been met. The only exception to this requirement would be if the substitute pitcher became incapacitated or guilty of flagrant unsportsmanlike conduct. If there had been no announcement of the substitution, the unreported substitution would be considered to have been made when the pitcher took his place on the pitcher’s plate and the ball was made live. (3-1-1, 3-1-2)"

 

[Guest Rky Mtn Ref]

Thanks to all; how I (hopefully) understand it is that an illegal sub can be called out at any time.   So let's say he gets a base hit with a runner at 3rd who scores.  A pitch is made to a following batter.  Now the defense appeals the illegal sub.  The only penalty is the illegal sub is called out but the run still counts because the appeal is after the pitch.