Runs Scoring

[Guest Tomuic]

OBR: One out, 1st &3rd. R1 runs on the pitch, ball is bunted. R1 rounds 2nd (having missed the base) BEFORE the batter is thrown out at 1st.(now 2 out) R1 advances to 3rd and R3 advances to the plate. R1 is now called out on appeal for missing 2nd base. Does the run count?

[noumpere]

R1 was forced at the time he missed the base, so his appeal out is a force out.  No runs can score when the third out is a force out.

[GreyhoundAggie]

deleted

[agdz59]

It appears we are at an impasse. Mr. Blue?

[GreyhoundAggie]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

R1 was forced at the time he missed the base, so his appeal out is a force out.  No runs can score when the third out is a force out.

I believe you are right on this one noumpere. i'm going to take my answer down. Forgot that on the missed base that the status matters at the time.

[maven]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

R1 was forced at the time he missed the base, so his appeal out is a force out.  No runs can score when the third out is a force out.

+1

Same ruling all [major] codes.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, agdz59 said:

It appears we are at an impasse. Mr. Blue?

There is no impasse as @GreyhoundAggie has admitted to the error of his ways regarding the OP. But perhaps he was thinking of the difference between OBR and NCAA regarding multiple appeals. In NCAA if the batter was out on appeal instead of live action they consider the force removed on R1 when he is appealed after the BR. OBR per Wendelstedt does not consider the force removed if it existed at the time of the miss even if the BR was appealed first.

[Guest Tomuic]

I found the answer to the question in OBR 5.0.9.(b)(6). “ however, if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out. this statement clearly determines that the force no longer exists anytime a following runner is retired on the fourth so regardless of when the mist base of cars. So the answer to the question (based on this rule) should be that the  run scores.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, GreyhoundAggie said:

I believe you are right on this one noumpere.

Some saying about a blind squirrel and a nut comes to mind.

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, Guest Tomuic said:

I found the answer to the question in OBR 5.0.9.(b)(6). “ however, if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out. this statement clearly determines that the force no longer exists anytime a following runner is retired on the fourth so regardless of when the mist base of cars. So the answer to the question (based on this rule) should be that the  run scores.

No, the run does not score. The appeal was of a missed base that R1 was forced to at the time of the miss. If a following runner, the BR,  was put out when R1 had not yet reached 2B the force would have been removed and if missed would not be a forced base appeal.

[Guest Tomuic]

Sorry for the poor typing. Here is what was intended.”OBR 5.0.9.(b)(6) states that the force is removed “if a following runner is put out ON A FORCE PLAY and the runner must be tagged to be put out”. This statement clearly establishes that the run scores regardless of “when” the missed base occurred.

[Guest Carl]

11 minutes ago, Guest Tomuic said:

Sorry for the poor typing. Here is what was intended.”OBR 5.0.9.(b)(6) states that the force is removed “if a following runner is put out ON A FORCE PLAY and the runner must be tagged to be put out”. This statement clearly establishes that the run scores regardless of “when” the missed base occurred.

Check 5.09(d), which is applicable.

[Senor Azul]

From Carl Childress’ 2016 Baseball Rule Differences (section 260, p. 170):

Force Play: Not Removed for Appeal of Baserunning Error

FED:  A force in effect at the time of the pitch remains in effect for the entire play only if a baserunning error occurs BEFORE a following runner is put out.

NCAA:  If a runner is put out during live action, his out does not remove the force on any preceding runner who might later be called out for a baserunning infraction. (8-5j Ex)

OBR:  Point not covered. Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: If an out on a following runner occurs before a runner reaches his forced base, the force is removed. Any appeal upheld for missing that base would not be a force out. Same as FED 8-2 Penalty.

Play 125-260:  Bases loaded, 1 out. B1 slaps an apparent extra-base hit, but he is thrown out trying for second (2 outs). On appeal, R2 is called out for missing third (3 outs). Ruling:  R3’s run does not count—but for different reasons at different levels. In NCAA, the run is canceled because the force remained in effect throughout the play. In FED and OBR, the force in effect at the time of the pitch remained throughout the play because the running error occurred BEFORE the out at second.

[maven]

35 minutes ago, Guest Tomuic said:

Sorry for the poor typing. Here is what was intended.”OBR 5.0.9.(b)(6) states that the force is removed “if a following runner is put out ON A FORCE PLAY and the runner must be tagged to be put out”. This statement clearly establishes that the run scores regardless of “when” the missed base occurred.

It does no such thing. It says that if, say, with bases loaded and 0/1 out, R1 is retired on a force play, any subsequent play on R2 or R3 would not be a force out.

The operative rule for the OP is "HOW A TEAM SCORES," which clearly states that no run scores when the 3rd out is a force out. It's 5.08(a).

In the OP, the 3rd out was the appeal of the missed base. By rule, when a runner is forced to advance at the time he missed a base, the out on appeal is a force out. If it's the 3rd out, no run will score.

[Guest Tomuic]

Why does OBR 5.09(b)(6) state that the FORCE IS REMOVED IF a following runner is retired ON A FORCE OUT? If all that matters is that the runner is still in a force situation WHEN he misses the base, then there is NO REASON to use the phrase “ON A FORCE OUT”, which has been in the OBR at least since 1987(oldest rulebook I have). My hunch is that they want this  specific situation of a following runner being retired ON A FORCE OUT to ALWAYS REMOVE the force for the simple reason that umpires don’t have to be concerned as to where runners are when a runner is retired routinely (especially when they are running on the pitch as in the original question).There is a reason that the rule is worded the way it is, and I don’t think it is simply an oversight!

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, Guest Tomuic said:

Why does OBR 5.09(b)(6) state that the FORCE IS REMOVED IF a following runner is retired ON A FORCE OUT? If all that matters is that the runner is still in a force situation WHEN he misses the base, then there is NO REASON to use the phrase “ON A FORCE OUT”, which has been in the OBR at least since 1987(oldest rulebook I have). My hunch is that they want this  specific situation of a following runner being retired ON A FORCE OUT to ALWAYS REMOVE the force for the simple reason that umpires don’t have to be concerned as to where runners are when a runner is retired routinely (especially when they are running on the pitch as in the original question).There is a reason that the rule is worded the way it is, and I don’t think it is simply an oversight!

Choose one or all:

• Jim Evans documents 123 (or some such) "known errors" in the book.
• The rule book is written by gentlemen, for gentlemen, not by lawyers, for lawyers.
• Any little change requires massive negotiations and give backs in other areas to get it through both the owners and players.  So, it's easier to implement changes (especially those that reflect the way it's been called) by interpretation.

Some fight / rail against this discrepancy; some just learn to live with it.

 

This is from JR (others have similar wording / plays / interps):

[LMSANS]

3 hours ago, Guest Tomuic said:

Why does OBR 5.09(b)(6) state that the FORCE IS REMOVED IF a following runner is retired ON A FORCE OUT? If all that matters is that the runner is still in a force situation WHEN he misses the base, then there is NO REASON to use the phrase “ON A FORCE OUT”, which has been in the OBR at least since 1987(oldest rulebook I have). My hunch is that they want this  specific situation of a following runner being retired ON A FORCE OUT to ALWAYS REMOVE the force for the simple reason that umpires don’t have to be concerned as to where runners are when a runner is retired routinely (especially when they are running on the pitch as in the original question).There is a reason that the rule is worded the way it is, and I don’t think it is simply an oversight!

You’re question was answered and clarified.

 

[maven]

Hey, call it your way. Good luck with your 10U career.

[The Man in Blue]

11 hours ago, noumpere said:

• Jim Evans documents 123 (or some such) "known errors" in the book.

Tangent ... where can I find this?  I've heard this referenced before and I would love to read it.