Batting team cheering during windup

[Velho]

LL Minors/10U District playoff game yesterday, I was PU. Top of the first, visitors were amped up and chanting (standard LL stuff nothing bad) into and through the windup and pitch. I directed the manager they had to stop with the pitcher beginning his windup. He pushed back (nicely) that is wasn't derogatory so should be allowed but he accepted and followed my direction and it stopped (one instance much later that he nipped without me having to even say anything).

I looked in the book but didn't see a direct rule to support my position. Is there something other than local common practice* and my personal interpretation of the sportsmanship rule that backs this up?

* Consistent the 9 years I've been umping in and around two local Districts.

[Senor Azul]

LittleLeague.org FAQs

If an umpire determines that a team’s chanting is an attempt to try to cause a balk/illegal pitch, can he/she request the action be halted?

Yes. Rule 4.06(c), No manager, coach, or player shall at any time whether from the bench or the playing field, make any move calculated to cause a balk or illegal pitch. The ability for a team to cheer for their batter or runners should not be restricted, unless there is a definite intent to gain an unfair advantage as discussed in Rule 4.06(c). The chanting/cheering must be in good taste and be directed solely at their own team. A good rule of thumb is the chants/cheers may be as loud as the team desires as long as there is no crescendo or shrieking when the pitcher is delivering the pitch. No artificial noise making (i.e.- pounding on buckets, or fences or air horns) is allowed.

[ArchAngel72]

I been doing my best to tell coaches all year.

 

As Soon as they get to a SET position the cheer needs to stop. 

For he most part it only takes mentioning it once,

 

State finals the PU stopped it in like the 3rd inning from the Home team they were really screeching during the pitcher delivering the ball.

 

[LRZ]

This:

31 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

As Soon as they get to a SET position the cheer needs to stop. 

is inconsistent with this:

On 6/6/2021 at 5:06 PM, Senor Azul said:

The ability for a team to cheer for their batter or runners should not be restricted, unless there is a definite intent to gain an unfair advantage as discussed in Rule 4.06(c). . . .  A good rule of thumb is the chants/cheers may be as loud as the team desires as long as there is no crescendo or shrieking when the pitcher is delivering the pitch.

[Emphases added.]

[ArchAngel72]

25 minutes ago, LRZ said:

This:

is inconsistent with this:

[Emphases added.]

 

It typically ends up with a crescendo or shrieking when the pitcher is delivering 

 

So I nip it in the bud before it gets there as THAT is exactly what happened 3rd inning of the state finals on Sunday morning. the visiting team ramped up their cheer basically drowning out anything else on the field AND some of the kids were screeching.  PU called time and stated that was enough I am sure it was hurting his ears.  At that point its not a fun cheer its an intent to disrupt the pitcher and if you instruct the coaches to tell them to stop at the "SET"    then later on in the game when they are getting louder BUT stopping when the pitcher starts his delivery then there is no complaining about it from the other bench, WHICH there has been at times.

 

I also tell them during the season cheer for YOUR player to do well DO NOT cheer for the pitcher to "walk him walk him"

 

I don't think of it as inconsistent. I think of it as preventative maintenance. 

Because if they are not doing it during the pitch Then I dont have to worry if they are actually trying to distract the pitcher or are they cheering on their batter.

 

One thing for sure the cheer always dies when the pitcher releases the ball..  It never continues thru the batter swinging..

TO ME THAT IS on purpose and attempting to distract the pitcher  SO I STOP IT STOP IT...

[ArchAngel72]

On 7/2/2019 at 11:50 PM, Senor Azul said:

From the 2019 Little League Rules Instruction Manual:

4.06 - No manager, coach or player, shall at any time, whether from the bench or the playing field or elsewhere –

(b) use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, manager, coach, an umpire or spectators;

INSTRUCTOR'S COMMENTS:

This includes firing up the crowd against the umpires or opposing team. The penalty is ejection from the game.

Language from anyone that reflects badly upon opposing players, manager, coach, an umpire or spectators. Penalty is ejection.

Most teams, particularly infielders, chatter (“Hey, batter, batter”) when the ball is being delivered. This is usually acceptable, and has not caused any problems in local leagues. Do not, however, allow any player, especially the catcher, to yell “Swing” at the batter when the ball is being delivered.

(c) make any move calculated to cause the pitcher to commit an illegal pitch [a balk in BASEBALL: Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League];

INSTRUCTOR'S COMMENTS:

Stop this maneuver immediately.

This could involve many acts, such as the batter stepping out of box or raising his/her hand toward the pitcher, the base coach yelling “Go” or “Balk”, the base runner yelling, or the manager yelling “Time” from the dugout.

The base runner clapping his/her hands or kicking the dirt is normally not a problem and should be ignored.

Even though the following case play is for high school I think it goes quite well with the previous Little League rules. And I also think it just might be the IIRC Mr. Richvee mentioned.

2014 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 12: The visiting team has developed an orchestrated team action to cheer on a teammate to get a rally going. The action consists of a rhythmic series of hand claps and foot stomps. RULING: As long as the action is within the spirit of fair play, and not intended to induce a balk, create a distraction for the opposing team or intimidate/demean them, this action is acceptable. There have been some instances where a team, for example, begins to pound bats in the dugout only when the opposing pitcher begins to deliver a pitch. That action is clearly intended to gain an advantage and is not to be allowed. (3-3-1)

https://umpire-empire.com/topic/73012-little-league-noise-and-chanting-rule/

 

[Rich Ives]

7 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I been doing my best to tell coaches all year.

 

As Soon as they get to a SET position the cheer needs to stop. 

 

You are wrong.

[ArchAngel72]

15 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

You are wrong.

How am I wrong if I make a judgement that they are trying to distract the pitcher?

 

How am I wrong if its obvious that since the cheer stops once the pitch is released that they are in fact only screaming louder to do what they can to distract the pitcher.

 

 

[maven]

Is everything that distracts a pitcher illegal? 

[MadMax]

16 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

 

On 8/2/2021 at 9:06 AM, ArchAngel72 said:

I been doing my best to tell coaches all year.

 

As Soon as they get to a SET position the cheer needs to stop. 

 

Expand  

You are wrong.

 

 

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

How am I wrong?

Because that’s not what the rule states, Arch. 

See, you (we) need to understand who @Rich Ives is and what he represents in the umpire | coach dynamic. Coach Ives is a rare quality amongst the total number of coaches you will ever encounter, but he represents a coach who not only is highly experienced, but knows the Rules backwards, forwards, and inside out. And, depending on the situation, or the particular coach’s disposition, will use any flaw in your knowledge of the Rules against you. 

In the quoted statements, I can already see, multiple points, where he’s “got ya”. 

• “He’s (F1) not in the SET position, blue. He’s in the windup”. 
• “He’s not coming SET, blue. He hasn’t all game.” 
• “We’re playing closed bases, blue. He doesn’t have to use the SET position.” 
• “Why so hostile, blue? Why does ‘the cheer’ need to stop? The rules don’t prohibit cheering.” 
• “We’re cheering for our own batter, blue. He likes the encouragement.” 

And those are just examples. I’m sure Coach Ives has others. The point is, the “needs to stop” in your directive is not founded in the Rules. And no, we’re not going to 9.01c; we shouldn’t have to, we shouldn’t ever have to, especially for something that is, ultimately (as in the grand scheme of things) minor and non-affecting. 

In this, or any, coach interaction, less – saying less, doing less – is decidedly more – more effective in the long run. “Doing my best to tell coaches all year”… why? You’re just going to wear yourself out. And, by telling them a “rule” – one that isn’t verbatim to the Rules – you are opening yourself to scrutiny and challenge to your knowledge base. “If he’s got that wrong, what other rules is he gettin’ wrong?” 

It’s more effective to address and handle this on a case by case basis – use a jeweler’s engraving hammer instead of a  pile-driver or sledge-hammer. Kids are screaming and shrieking? “Hey, guys, cheering’s great, but no screaming.” Kids are banging on the metal bench, or shaking the fence? “Hey, guys, you can clap, but don’t be bangin’ the bench (or shaking the fence)”. Simple. Easy. 

[ArchAngel72]

So if I am at 3rd base and I mention it to the base coach in the 1st inning. Hey coach make sure your cheers are for your players and not against the other teams pitcher and please make sure they are stopping the cheer for their batter when the pitcher is actually pitching.

 

That is wrong?

 

Cause in a lot of time this happens, even during the season and sometimes MUCH more.  What happens is the teams cheering raises to without a doubt some screeching that is actual intent to distract the pitcher, WHICH IS AGAINST THE RULES.

 

So if I do some preventative maintenance and mention it to the base coach early in the game and he gets them to stop cheering during the pitch and it never comes up again.. That's wrong?

OK ..

I'm gonna "whatever" this ...

 

Yeah I will be a bad ump that way at the LL level... 

 

Just like we tell the kids don't be like CT and give the batter signs from second base... 

To me its about sportsmanship and being there to have fun.

Yelling and screeching at the other teams pitcher does not fall under good sportsmanship to me.

 

Slightly different thing..

Had a coach on the last out of the game his team trailing he's in the 3rd base coaches box and his batter hits a slow roller to F1  from the 3B coaches box he times it and yells at the top of his lungs " THROW IT AWAY"  at the pitcher.

Whats the pitcher do, got scared and tossed it at the ground 5 feet in front of himself  Mind you this is 10U

 

I was not there but this is what I heard from the base ump who was on the game

BR was called out on coaches interference.  At which time the other teams Manager got onto the field and was yelling at that coach for being an unbelievable jerk.  The coach that did the offending was a 6 foot 4 red head who then quick walked over to the other coach and belly bumped him.  I do not know what was said back but the BU told me he at that point ran over and restrained the Base coach from doing anything else and asked him to leave the field as the game was over and reminded him he was there for the kids. 

 

So yeah this is the type of people we have to deal with, when this sort of stuff is happening. 

Oddly enough it was that same team with that same coach that was the one being screeched at.

 

 

[Rich Ives]

5 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

How am I wrong if I make a judgement that they are trying to distract the pitcher?

 

How am I wrong if its obvious that since the cheer stops once the pitch is released that they are in fact only screaming louder to do what they can to distract the pitcher.

 

 

Yo didn't say there was a crescendo.  If there is none it's legal.

If it stops after the ball is released if cannot possibly affect the pitcher/pitch. Physics 101.

[ArchAngel72]

22 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Yo didn't say there was a crescendo.  If there is none it's legal.

If it stops after the ball is released if cannot possibly affect the pitcher/pitch. Physics 101.

I mentioned it was..  I said there was screeching

Also physics yes please lets think about this and the motive of the screeching

pitcher catches ball from catcher, cheering starts, cheering ramps up to a screeching assault on the ears and stops as pitcher releases ball there is near silence as the ball sails towards the batter whom gets a "near silent crowd now moment" to get his head wrapped around the pitch and whether to swing or not.

All the while the pitcher was working all thru his mechanics and delivery of the pitch with the assault on his ears and mind going on.

Or are you saying the speed of sound is slower than the speed of a 10U's pitch? 

 

I mean Come on man,  If the cheer stops upon release of the ball its subliminally obvious that hmm they are cheering for their batter BUT they are only cheering when the pitcher is working Not when HE/SHE IS.

 

[SH0102]

Lord this convo went on a tangent….

Very simple adage to go by….if the sound is constant, no matter the volume, it isn’t distracting (ever seen a girls softball game? Goodness…)

Hooting and hollering without interruption and drastic alteration is never an issue (barring derogatory remarks of course)

The basic cheering followed by a shrill yell/screech/word/phrase at the moment of delivery?  Now we have something to address.

[SeeingEyeDog]

...and make them aware of their potential consequences if it continues the first time you speak to them about it.

"Coach, if your team continues to do this, you will be ejected."

Maybe you CAN eject them, maybe you can't. Maybe you WILL eject them, maybe you won't. Fear can be a powerful tool.

I had 2 JV players pushing and shoving after a close play. I just said, "Guys...knock it off. Fighting is a 10 game suspension." It ended quicker than it started.

~Dawg

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 

...and make them aware of their potential consequences if it continues the first time you speak to them about it.

"Coach, if your team continues to do this, you will be ejected."

 

Going right to DEFCON 2? And we wonder why coaches hold us in such contempt, and are loathe to even interact with us. 

It’s not even a matter of can-vs-can’t, or will-vs-won’t. Why make this an ejectable offense? 

2 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I had 2 JV players pushing and shoving after a close play. I just said, "Guys...knock it off. Fighting is a 10 game suspension." It ended quicker than it started.

Three parts serious, one part snark – I nominate this as one of your most effective examples of game/situation management. One of the key elements here is that you recognized the context for what it was (JV game), addressed it in controlled (not controlling) calm manner, and didn’t intensify nor escalate the event more than it was. Also, that you gave the participants an out, or an option to end it (or fix it) on their own. 

[ArchAngel72]

So I just think I figured out what I need to say to get you guys to realize the difference I am talking about

The cheers go from a start of something that anyone would agree is a cheer or chant

to about 3 or 4 10U boys screeching it so high pitched it hurts everyone around them ears,  actually making others around them "wince" in pain. 

This is what I mean in distraction  This is what I have observed and asked to stop.  this is why I try to head it off at the pass and ask them to stop upon a pitcher coming set or getting ready to pitch cause then I don't have to worry about timmy johnny and chris annoying the other coach so bad HE says "Hey blue that's distracting my pitcher" which yah has happened.

[kylejt]

To me, that sudden stop and silence is far more effective in distracting a pitcher than the even volume cheers. 

To me, if they increase it during the delivery, then I'll have a word with the skipper. Aside from that, I won't kick that hornet's nest, and let the kids have fun. And yeah, go watch a softball game you baseball guys. 

In the end, it's a judgement on if it's intended to cause a balk/IP. 

[SH0102]

I said it before and I’ll say it again…continuity is your friend.  Kid screeches from an already loud pitch?  Meh…I doubt pitcher even noticed.  Now, if pitcher flinches or stops right after the shrill scream, you can then decide not to balk and call verbal interference or what have you.  But unless it actually distracts the pitcher, you don’t need to intervene on behalf of little 10-12 year olds.

Now, it’s quiet and THEN a shrill shriek at time of pitch?  Now we have an issue

[Velho]

I went away from the site for two weeks and came back to find this turned into quite a conversation. I intended to come back with a follow up anyone but y'all got on to it without me. 😀

Observing the rest of our LL District post-season (context: the game I did was the District playoff opener, i.e. first game outside regular league play that was followed by 5 weeks of inter-league games), I noticed my more senior brethren (including the top District muckity mucks) being more relaxed about this than I was on that day (read that as none said anything ever). 

In my game, the intensity of the cheering from the very first pitch is what caught me out. It being so different than historical social norms plus my gut that there was above normal potential for a problem later in the game led me to talk to the manager.

Reflecting on it now, the same in the 5th or 6th inning likely would have gone unnoticed. Maybe Covid break put me off, maybe my local league social norms have dramatically diverged from our area, maybe I'm more calm that I used to be so their intensity was striking, maybe I was being hyper vigilant about preventing problems, maybe I slept funny... I don't know.

I'll be more relaxed about it next time but I'm taking it as a learning. This was overly conservative - got it. The possibility I'm seeking to avoid is the inching, inching, inching to the line until it flies past the line into a complete cluster (like it did in one game I observed as a spectator that above reference senior & muckity muck umps were working).

All the above is good input to help me sort that out. I appreciate you all.