Shouldn't they ..... know??

[HokieUmp]

This one's not as philosophic or otherwise deep-meaning as the "Why do you umpire?" thread, and it's probably more meant for the coaches that are on here - or the guys that are, or used to be, coaches - but I feel like I need to ask.

I personally don't mention it during the plate meeting, but there are plenty of guys I work with that say something like "if you have an issue with a call, talk to the guy that made the call."  Here's my question - and you can see it coming from the subject line - but shouldn't they already kinda KNOW that?

I mean, I get it - especially in a house league, it's daddy coaches, and they're there for their son at that level, and will move on when the son moves up or stops playing.  As a counterpoint, though:  even when you're watching an MLB game on TV, when there's a disputed call at, say, 1B, the manager doesn't go running to the 3B umpire, looking for a changed call.

This has been quite a week at the one place I'm working right now.  Tuesday night, I had a tag play on a kid coming back to 2B.  It was close - not helped by the kid trying to tag the upper body, with the runner trying to slide - but I get the out.  It's the 3rd out, so I'm heading for short RF, only to turn and see runners still on the bases (another peeve), and the HC talking to my partner.  As God is my witness, my partner heads out, and motions me over.  Right or wrong, he's still 10-15 feet away when I say "I'm not changing that call.  Those runners can stand there forever, but I'm not changing it."  I'm also a little irritated that my partner listened to him, to the point of doing that.

So that didn't help my mood last night, when (again, BU) my partner gets a tag-out at the plate to end bottom-1.  HC. in the 3B box, starts walking towards ME.  "I want to appeal that play."

"Good for you!  [Pause]  Go talk to the guy that made the call!"

Yes, I realize that was dickish of me.  And I even said so to the 1B coach on my way to my water jug.  But I also tried to explain the 'why' on that;  don't know if it worked.

But back to my original question:  shouldn't coaches already be aware of this concept?  Doesn't anyone ELSE notice, even when there's a conference on a call, the decision is made/signalled by the original calling umpire?  Or that too much of an "insider" deal?

Anyway, just kinda venting some irritation 

[ArchAngel72]

I do at my level advise coaches to ask me for time 1st before they go talk to the BU if I have one.

 

But yeah at my level its a teaching thing with the coaches too. 

 

[The Man in Blue]

I have worked with partners who, as the PU, say at their plate meeting “You come to me with any questions on any calls.”  They cut me out completely.  I guess I shouldn’t get worked up over that, but I know where that is going to lead ...

To the original question ... there is a lot they should already know.  But no, they don’t.

[Scissors]

I've done that before as the PU when the coach is asking about a BU call. Pretty embarrassing with my experienced partner but at least I learned from it.

[stkjock]

having been a LL coach and lower talent travel coach, I can tell you, no one ever told me to talk to the umpire who made the call, now on the rare time I had a question on a call I typically would.  However, as a coach with little experience, that had coached many games with just a single umpire or two at the most, typically who's "in charge" at the plate meeting, the PU, so I can see a greener coach going to PU on things... just ignorance, not malice. 

[HokieUmp]

I guess some of my "outrage" comes from .... "Dude, I'm roughly 110' from the play you didn't like.  My partner was RIGHT THERE.  Looking RIGHT at it.  What, exactly, do you think imma add to this convo??!?"

And the first one - I was 5' away from the play or less.  What is my plate guy gonna see, from behind the foul line, roughly (this was a 60' diamond and math is hard, so ....) 100' away?

This line of reasoning also leads me to reply "No" to the question "Can you get help on that?"  The looks I get from different coaches/managers is a LITTLE like my dog, when I ask her a question that starts with "Do you ...." - the side-head-tilt.  Because often, there's no help really to be given, and it IS, after all, my call.  The question is just being asked out of hope, more than from the rulebook.

[SH0102]

That point isn’t even always understood by umpires, let alone coaches.

I was watching my son umpire (BU) he is new but solid, and his partner (HPU) was someone I know has umpired at least a few years.

My son had a banger at first, called an out.  Kind of a long delay but eventually OHC comes out of 3B dugout and says to HPU “I want to appeal that play”.

HPU says “you have to go talk to him first”.  I was right by backstop and I know the HPU so right as I was about to say it, my son yells from A position “you can’t appeal a judgment call”.

Not only do people need to know the process, they need to understand what can be discussed. Safe/out and ball/strike are not them

[Velho]

3 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

The question is just being asked out of hope, more than from the rulebook.

Ding ding!  

In my experience, it's a mix of this and coach experience. Can't go to the ump that said Out because the runner was.

That said, the savvier coaches go to the other ump on a fishing expedition trying to get them to slip up and say the wrong thing.

The level and time of year (and of course coaches' demeanor) will influence my level of patience. 12U All Stars / know it all coach* - nope.  10U coach who volunteered so kids could play and self admittedly has no clue? "Yeah, ok coach. Here's how this works" (big part of why I do LL).

* Yeah coach, remember that pregame debate on the out of dugout bucket? Pick your battles next time.

 

[jjb]

 

First, in the lower age groups, the coaches you’ll find are of the “hey I played JV Ball in HS – I know the rules” type of coach. They simply don’t know but think they know. Second, the ones that will tell you “we just want to get the call right” are lying to you: they want to get the call they want. (How many times have you made a banger call of Safe on first, when the first base coach will say, “hey can you check with your partner; I think my runner was out.” – I didn’t think so. ). So it is reasonable that, whenever you make a call they don’t like, they will try and “shop” the call to someone else, hoping they will get at least a discussion that may lead to what they want.

The experienced Umpire will, when approached by a coach wanting you to change (or even talk about) a call made by another will become completely uncommunicative and tell him “I can’t help you”. When asked by a coach “can I appeal that call?” (made by your partner), your response should be “not to me”.

[Replacematt]

7 hours ago, SH0102 said:

HPU says “you have to go talk to him first”.  I was right by backstop and I know the HPU so right as I was about to say it, my son yells from A position “you can’t appeal a judgment call”.

Not only do people need to know the process, they need to understand what can be discussed. Safe/out and ball/strike are not them

Umm...most times that an umpire gets help, it's an issue of judgment. Tag/no tag, for example, contributes to safe/out and is a decision of judgment.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Great topic...

It's been 5 years since I coached LL but, back in that day, ALL managers were required to attend a mandatory meeting before each season lead by the league's UIC with other members of the board in attendance. They usually held two. One for new LL managers, one for returning. If you didn't show, you didn't manage a team that season.

Topics included...an overview of the rules, new rules for that year, points of emphasis (set by the Board prior) and finally a closing session that is basically how you talk/engage with umpires. It didn't make our league perfect but, it prevented a great deal.

I really don't like making a speech about that stuff at a plate meeting for 14U and above. They absolutely should know...many don't, of course and they will be handled. Absent association or UIC direction, I have to draw a line and this is where and how I draw it. For 13U down, I will add, "If you have a question, please ask for time and wait for time to be granted."

For those if you working outside LL, if you have your UIC's ear or if you are a UIC, please consider this kind of LL style pre-season meeting.

If this were 40 years ago, I'd suggest a BBQ with all the trimmings for managers and umpires prior to the season but, we don't live in that world anymore.

~Dawg

[SH0102]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Umm...most times that an umpire gets help, it's an issue of judgment. Tag/no tag, for example, contributes to safe/out and is a decision of judgment.

Ummmm no…not seeing a pulled foot is not judgment.  Calling an out on the timing is judgment, as is whether a pitch crossed the strike zone, as is whether a batter offered.

If you let coaches appeal your partners safe/out calls on timing, more power to you,  but don’t act like you don’t know what can and can not be appealed for help by a coach.

[SeeingEyeDog]

14 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Ummmm no…not seeing a pulled foot is not judgment.  Calling an out on the timing is judgment, as is whether a pitch crossed the strike zone, as is whether a batter offered.

If you let coaches appeal your partners safe/out calls on timing, more power to you,  but don’t act like you don’t know what can and can not be appealed for help by a coach.

"Hey Blue, since you granted me that appeal earlier on tag/no tag at 1B...can you also go to your partner now on this tag play at home just now?"

That's not a reasonable request but, what we PERMIT on the field of play (appeals on plays that should not have been appealed, for instance...) we PROMOTE and we have now ok'd that appeal for the remainder of the baseball game.

Some calls can be appealed, if requested properly by the manager. Some calls should NEVER be granted an appeal. And finally, a last group of calls not covered previously? Well, it all depends on the umpire, the situation and how he has been treated by that manager during that game...

Manager who has been a mope all game to my crew and is now asking for a check swing? Nope to the mope...and your crew better know to never grant a check swing appeal unless the PU initiates it.

~Dawg

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Ummmm no…not seeing a pulled foot is not judgment.  Calling an out on the timing is judgment, as is whether a pitch crossed the strike zone, as is whether a batter offered.

Yes, it is. You are judging whether the foot was pulled or not, and it is an element of judgment just like determining if the runner beat the throw. Any time you are deciding what happened, it is judgment, and here are only two parts to any call: judgment and interpretation; the former can sometimes be appealed, the latter always can.

Don't say platitudes like "you can't appeal (argue) judgment calls" because they most certainly can. 

[LRZ]

19 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

It's the 3rd out, so I'm heading for short RF, only to turn and see runners still on the bases (another peeve), and the HC talking to my partner.  As God is my witness, my partner heads out, and motions me over. 

Umpires like your partner are why coaches have not learned, I would guess. I had this happen once, and in the three sports I work, since 1981, that PU is one of just two officials I've blocked.

[The Man in Blue]

There are only a FEW acceptable replies to "Can I appeal that play?"

• Coach, who left the base early?
• Coach, who missed a base?
• Coach, who batted out of order?
• Coach, which other runner would you like called out?* (NOTE: this is the smart @$$ response.)

[HokieUmp]

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

There are only a FEW acceptable replies to "Can I appeal that play?"

• Coach, who left the base early?
• Coach, who missed a base?
• Coach, who batted out of order?
• Coach, which other runner would you like called out?* (NOTE: this is the smart @$$ response.)

Well, hang on.  My screed isn't really over the use of the term - I'm not getting into the semantics of 'appeal.'  Again, these are Daddy Coaches, so they're not gonna be rules scholars on their BEST day.

I'm just wondering about the execution of all this - why they're immediately approaching the other umpire, as if that guy is gonna change the call for them, just because they ask?  That's why I threw MY smart-ass response.

[maven]

8 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

I'm just wondering about the execution of all this - why they're immediately approaching the other umpire, as if that guy is gonna change the call for them, just because they ask?  That's why I threw MY smart-ass response.

Just as they don't know the rules, they don't know the proper procedures.

And thus, they don't know what is likely to annoy us about their improper procedures (and they're likely to be perplexed when we express that annoyance).

AND: somehow, all this is OUR fault.

[HokieUmp]

4 hours ago, maven said:

Just as they don't know the rules, they don't know the proper procedures.

And thus, they don't know what is likely to annoy us about their improper procedures (and they're likely to be perplexed when we express that annoyance).

AND: somehow, all this is OUR fault.

Yeah.  All of this is true.

This past week, with both of those incidents in the OP, are at a local LL.  I don't work with them all season (which feels short to me, being a little over two months long), because HS ball is my priority, so I fit in where I can.  But the group of umpires is a good one - we gather together in the lot prior to, to hang out and bullSH*# together, since nearly every game starts at the same time, and hang out after, too.  So even though I'm a mercenary, I WANT to stay with this league while I live here. 

I want to ask our assignor to get together with the league before next season, and maybe have that convo with them.  And I guess I need to add more to my plate meeting talk - at least for that league.  I don't WANT to do that, since I like keeping my meetings short, and REALLY don't want to find myself saying that in a HS pre-game.

It still just seems so OBVIOUS to me.  Even if I were a "civilian," I'd like to *think* I'd be thinking "why would go to THAT guy, over THERE, who's nowhere near the play in question"??  And yes, I realize more than a little of it is shopping the call.

[stkjock]

Have the LL get all the coaches together before the season and have an umpire rep give them a tutorial.  Out LL did that at least one season and it was helpful