2 man system positioning on a small diamond

[DCM]

10U Select, OBR/USSSA Rules

Should U2 move if F6 (or F4) asks due to view obstruction?  I have read that on the small diamond U2 should be outside the baseline in position B and C.

[Aging_Arbiter]

On a small diamond, you are outside.  If on a bigger diamond and on the inside, I have found that taking a half step or so in either direction (left/right) or even up towards the working area from b/c, often clears their line and doesn't put me out of position.  I'm sure we will hear a lot more suggestions from a lot more qualified people on here in the very near future.

[SH0102]

Please note, my info is based on experience and opinion.  I have not seen a "manual" or official credo regarding this topic, if there is one:

1)  General Philosophy:  If you can move at the request of an infielder without sacrificing your position and ability to be in the correct position, then by all means give them a step.  **Note**:  I never move at the request of the runner on 2nd.

2)  On a small field, it is pretty easy to get to the correct position, so I would definitely move at their request.  On a small field, you can get almost every call from the working area.

3)  I have worked outside on a 60' base field, and I was just straight up uncomfortable.  I ended up just working inside and making sure I wasn't right in front of F4 or F6.  While being outside is theoretically possible, I don't think it is good practice for "working your way up" to 70 - 90' fields where you won't do that (unless you get to 4-umpire games)

Heck, part of learning to be a good BU is anticipating positioning, where you are in relation to fielders and ball and the path of the throw and adjusting properly so that you end up in a good position.  Where better to gain experience than a field where the IF'ers are practically on top of you?

Just my 2 cents

[stevis]

1 hour ago, ShaunH said:

Please note, my info is based on experience and opinion.  I have not seen a "manual" or official credo regarding this topic, if there is one:

1)  General Philosophy:  If you can move at the request of an infielder without sacrificing your position and ability to be in the correct position, then by all means give them a step.  **Note**:  I never move at the request of the runner on 2nd.

2)  On a small field, it is pretty easy to get to the correct position, so I would definitely move at their request.  On a small field, you can get almost every call from the working area.

3)  I have worked outside on a 60' base field, and I was just straight up uncomfortable.  I ended up just working inside and making sure I wasn't right in front of F4 or F6.  While being outside is theoretically possible, I don't think it is good practice for "working your way up" to 70 - 90' fields where you won't do that (unless you get to 4-umpire games)

Heck, part of learning to be a good BU is anticipating positioning, where you are in relation to fielders and ball and the path of the throw and adjusting properly so that you end up in a good position.  Where better to gain experience than a field where the IF'ers are practically on top of you?

Just my 2 cents

Being outside at 60' is necessary on "closed-base" rules sets where BU is responsible for calling runners who leave early.  (E.g., Little League Majors and below.)  If you have runners leading off, I would agree with you 100% to be inside.  Though even at 70', it's a step-lively situation.  It took me a couple of years after we started the LL "Intermediate" level to get a hang for clearing F6's throwing lane to first without a last-second adjustment.

[Aging_Arbiter]

all things considered (tape measure excluded) outside on a 60' diamond is probably pretty close to the same distance from the plate as being inside on the 90' diamond.  just by guesstimations.

[Mudisfun]

Personally, on a 60' I prefer to be outside, regardless if LL with locked bases, or OBR with open bases. Your just working from the mirror angle you see from being inside, and as @Aging_Arbitermentioned, your basically close to the same distance outside as you would be working inside on a 90' field. 

On a 60' field, home to second is about 85' so working outside puts you around 90' out, and on a 90' field it is 127' from home to 2nd, which means working inside in B or C puts you about 85-90 feet from home... 

I just do not like being inside on a small diamond... big guy with a lot of little people to crush.

[Aging_Arbiter]

@Aging_Arbiter <---bigger guy than n @Mudisfun  

[kylehutson]

When I'm working with new umpires, typically teenagers, in my rec league (60' bases), I have everybody start outside. When a play starts, I tell them "outside-in inside-out" - if the ball goes to the outfield, come inside the diamond and watch for where the play develops. If the ball stays in the infield, work outside the diamond. In both cases, this lets you see everything in front of you and gives you a wide peripheral view for those times when things don't develop like you think they should (which is, like, 75% of the time in rec ball).

[DCM]

On 2/15/2021 at 1:00 PM, Aging_Arbiter said:

On a small diamond, you are outside.  If on a bigger diamond and on the inside, I have found that taking a half step or so in either direction (left/right) or even up towards the working area from b/c, often clears their line and doesn't put me out of position.  I'm sure we will hear a lot more suggestions from a lot more qualified people on here in the very near future.

But is there a rule that requires an umpire to move from obstructing a players view?  I’ve see a few umpires refuse and the young players are not going to challenge an adult.  

[SH0102]

16 minutes ago, DCM said:

But there is there a rule that requires an umpire to move from obstructing a players view?  I’ve see a few umpires refuse and the young players are not going to challenge an adult.  

There is no rule requiring it, it's really more about common sense and situation.  If I can take a step in either direction and help the defense and still be in position for my calls, then great.  

Funny story, I was in the "C" once, and the SS asked if I could take a step (don't remember if it was right or left), so I took a step and asked if he was good.  He said "oh, it isn't for me, the center-fielder wanted you to move".

I went back to my original spot.  From that distance, F8 can move literally three inches and see the entire batter.

That was pretty humorous in my mind though, never had an F8 ask me to move before

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, DCM said:

But is there a rule that requires an umpire to move from obstructing a players view?

On the contrary (depending, perhaps, on how literally one chooses to read this):

  (b) A field umpire may take any position on the playing field he
thinks best suited to make impending decisions on the bases.

[beerguy55]

5 hours ago, DCM said:

But is there a rule that requires an umpire to move from obstructing a players view?  I’ve see a few umpires refuse and the young players are not going to challenge an adult.  

This comes down to whether or not the umpire thinks he/she is bigger, or more important, than the game or players.

The ump doesn't have to make a play on the ball...the player is putting himself in the best position to meet many possibilities...there is far less at stake for an umpire to be three feet from ideal compared to a player.  To refuse is not good game management.    As long as the player isn't doing it every pitch the ump should be willing to make this compromise...if it's happening more than once an inning something else is going on.   They're not asking you to move 50 yards, or change your clothes, or shave your moustache.   They're making a simple and reasonable request based on what they're trying to accomplish as a player.

It's a very simple thing to remember...every day thousands of games of baseball are played across the world without umpires (and coaches)...I have yet to see a single one happen without players.  Work with the players - it will be a far richer experience for everyone, in the long run.   Sometimes I think some umpires are forgetting who serves who.

And I hope no umpire ever tells a player to change his position to accommodate the umpire's view.   

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

n the contrary (depending, perhaps, on how literally one chooses to read this):

  (b) A field umpire may take any position on the playing field he
thinks best suited to make impending decisions on the bases.

Yes, taken literally the BU could stand one foot in front of wherever F6 stands...or, heck, stand on the rubber with the pitcher...whatever he thinks is best.  On the opposite, a player, too, is only bound by the rules keeping him in fair territory, and potential OBS.   He can otherwise stand where he thinks it's best suited to make an impending play, including directly in front of an umpire (though I'm curious if there's a case play about this).   If "within reason" isn't understood there we're all in trouble.

 

[Rich Ives]

On 2/15/2021 at 3:07 PM, stevis said:

Being outside at 60' is necessary on "closed-base" rules sets where BU is responsible for calling runners who leave early.  (E.g., Little League Majors and below.)  If you have runners leading off, I would agree with you 100% to be inside.  Though even at 70', it's a step-lively situation.  It took me a couple of years after we started the LL "Intermediate" level to get a hang for clearing F6's throwing lane to first without a last-second adjustment.

If you are inside on a small diamond you will get hit by a line drive. You will. It may not have happened yet but you will. 

[Aging_Arbiter]

20 hours ago, DCM said:

But is there a rule that requires an umpire to move from obstructing a players view?  I’ve see a few umpires refuse and the young players are not going to challenge an adult.  

like mentioned, there is no rule, but if you are going to be "that guy", go officiate tennis.  At least they give you a chair that is out of the way.