6.02(a)(4) Question - Unoccupied or occupied? (OBR)

[Coach BIll]

So R1 - RHP - runner goes on first movement, can the pitcher....

Use an inside move to second and then step off.

Reading the rule - it looks like the attempt to advance or even the impression of his intent to advance would allow the pitcher to treat second as though it were occupied. Am I right here?

 

[pnewton]

Pitcher may throw to a base for the purpose of making a play. Umpire judgment as if that's what the pitcher was really doing, but if runner is out at second or is now in a rundown then the pitcher was making a play.

[Jimurray]

31 minutes ago, pnewton said:

Pitcher may throw to a base for the purpose of making a play. Umpire judgment as if that's what the pitcher was really doing, but if runner is out at second or is now in a rundown then the pitcher was making a play.

I think the OP was asking if the pitcher could make an inside move and step toward 2B and thus disengage. That would be a legal feint and disengage and he then could either throw or run at the runner.

[Coach BIll]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

I think the OP was asking if the pitcher could make an inside move and step toward 2B and thus disengage. That would be a legal feint and disengage and he then could either throw or run at the runner.

That was what I meant and what I thought. We play against a few fast kids that always go on the first pitch - and they are hard to get out even with a pitchout. I think this move would catch them. We risk the balk if they don't go - but it's a good bet and our best chance to get them. 

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, Coach BIll said:

That was what I meant and what I thought. We play against a few fast kids that always go on the first pitch - and they are hard to get out even with a pitchout. I think this move would catch them. We risk the balk if they don't go - but it's a good bet and our best chance to get them. 

Don't bet against having an umpire who doesn't know the rules. But if you are gonna have R2 without trying this it's worth trying. The odds in my neck of the woods are 90-10 for you. It would have been 20-80 against 10 years ago but education has taken place.

[stkjock]

there's a coach on this site who has posted many times on using this move with success, @roothog66, use it, it may get a balk or two called if you guess wrong, however it will likely have a dramatic effect on the running game. 

 

 

[Coach BIll]

53 minutes ago, stkjock said:

there's a coach on this site who has posted many times on using this move with success, @roothog66, use it, it may get a balk or two called if you guess wrong, however it will likely have a dramatic effect on the running game. 

 

 

Awesome - thanks. I shared this idea with my coaching pal and he said I was wrong. Was emphatic it was a balk. (By the way - he's usually right.)  I said, "well, not one ump has called it a balk." Then he gave me an "LOL". (Like y'all are crazy).  He said every ump will call it a balk - so he won't do it. (Perhaps his confirmation bias.)  Do I believe a good percentage won't know what to do? Yes. Jimurray said it's 90-10 for you. I'm guessing about 50/50 around here. (Not every ump out there stays on top of their craft like you guys do.) Any umps out there think this is a balk and my coaching friend is right? LOL

[Coach BIll]

One more question on this topic/rule. R3 breaks for home. Pitcher in set and engaged with rubber- doesn't completely stop and throws home. How do you determine if it's a play or pitch? Thanks for all the feedback guys. Seriously helpful.  Saw this play and batter swung and got catcher's interference. (A-hole coach calling steals without telling batter to take twice in the same game. Two kids just missed getting hit with the swung bat.)

[Aging_Arbiter]

Just now, Coach BIll said:

Pitcher in set and engaged with rubber- doesn't completely stop and throws home

I've got a pitch (engaged with the plate), and a no stop balk.  Run scores. 

If he disengages, obviously it is no longer a pitch, and now becomes a play.

[Coach BIll]

1 minute ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

I've got a pitch (engaged with the plate), and a no stop balk.  Run scores. 

If he disengages, obviously it is no longer a pitch, and now becomes a play.

Thanks. Which is what I would think and call too. Was actually a stupid question. I'm just trying to understand this "purpose of making a play" in 6.02 (A) (4) which seems to be highly misunderstood. It would seem as though if a R2 broke to third that the pitcher could feint to third then make a play. 

[Jimurray]

25 minutes ago, Coach BIll said:

Thanks. Which is what I would think and call too. Was actually a stupid question. I'm just trying to understand this "purpose of making a play" in 6.02 (A) (4) which seems to be highly misunderstood. It would seem as though if a R2 broke to third that the pitcher could feint to third then make a play. 

The comment should make it clear. It was added in the recent past to loosen up the judgement of the umpire about whether the pitcher was making a play. But in OBR/NCAA you can't feint to 1B or 3B so the pitcher would have to throw.

"Rule 6.02(a)(4) Comment: When determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire should consider whether a runner on the previous base demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base."

[Coach BIll]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

But in OBR/NCAA you can't feint to 1B or 3B so the pitcher would have to throw.

Got it. Thanks again. So if you can't faint to 3rd or 1st to make a play, it would seem the loosened up rule distinctly will allow the pitcher to faint to 2nd (or their would be no mention of feinting to an unoccupied base)?  Very helpful. In fact, it would seem to clearly validate the ability to make the play at second, being that's the only base the pitcher can feint to provided the runner creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base.  I love learning the intricacies of the rules. 

[grayhawk]

2 hours ago, Coach BIll said:

 I love learning the intricacies of the rules. 

So you're the one...

[JSam21]

20 hours ago, Coach BIll said:

One more question on this topic/rule. R3 breaks for home. Pitcher in set and engaged with rubber- doesn't completely stop and throws home. How do you determine if it's a play or pitch? Thanks for all the feedback guys. Seriously helpful.  Saw this play and batter swung and got catcher's interference. (A-hole coach calling steals without telling batter to take twice in the same game. Two kids just missed getting hit with the swung bat.)

If the pitcher is engaged and throws to the plate... it is a pitch.