Batting out of turn—procedure

[spark2212]

If a player bats out of order, does anything stop the opposing manager from intentionally walking him and then immediately appealing? 

Assuming this is allowed, can the appeal be made as soon as the umpire grants the batter first base, or must they wait until the batter actually touches first?

[Richvee]

Intentional walks with no pitches is not live. Time is called and and the batter awarded 1B, so I don’t think he would have to wait for him to reach base. 

 I’d say legal appeal. 

[Rich Ives]

37 minutes ago, spark2212 said:

If a player bats out of order, does anything stop the opposing manager from intentionally walking him and then immediately appealing?  Nope

Assuming this is allowed, can the appeal be made as soon as the umpire grants the batter first base, or must they wait until the batter actually touches first? He became a runner so you can now appeal. The umpire will probably let the batter-runner get to first before granting time to actually discuss it.

Interspaced

 

[Rich Ives]

8 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Intentional walks with no pitches is not live. Time is called and and the batter awarded 1B

I can't find this in OBR.  Searched on "dead" and "time" and looked at both the definition of base on balls where the no pitch IW is permitted and in the batter becomes a runner rule.   What did I miss?

[Richvee]

3 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

I can't find this in OBR.  Searched on "dead" and "time" and looked at both the definition of base on balls where the no pitch IW is permitted and in the batter becomes a runner rule.   What did I miss?

Here is the Fed cite

Art 3 : The ball becomes dead when time is taken to make an award when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a runner, when an intentional base on balls is to be awarded, or when baserunning penalties are imposed.

[Rich Ives]

35 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Here is the Fed cite

Art 3 : The ball becomes dead when time is taken to make an award when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a runner, when an intentional base on balls is to be awarded, or when baserunning penalties are imposed.

Is there an OBR cite I missed?

[Senor Azul]

From the 2018 MiLBUM (section 10.1, p. 135):

If the defensive team’s manager notifies the umpire that he would like to intentionally walk the batter…

Prior to the at-bat beginning:  As the batter approaches the plate the umpire will call “time,” the ball is dead, and the umpire shall award the batter first base and advance any other runner(s) forced to advance by the batter being walked.

During an at-bat:  The umpire will call “time,” the ball is dead, and the umpire shall award the batter first base and advance any other runner(s) forced to advance by the batter being walked.

Once the defensive manager notifies the umpire he would like to no-pitch intentionally walk the batter, it will be too late for the defense to successfully appeal the following:  a missed base or a base left too soon, half swings, an improper batter (batting out of order), and misapplication of a rule (protest).

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2018 MiLBUM (section 10.1, p. 135):

If the defensive team’s manager notifies the umpire that he would like to intentionally walk the batter…

Prior to the at-bat beginning:  As the batter approaches the plate the umpire will call “time,” the ball is dead, and the umpire shall award the batter first base and advance any other runner(s) forced to advance by the batter being walked.

During an at-bat:  The umpire will call “time,” the ball is dead, and the umpire shall award the batter first base and advance any other runner(s) forced to advance by the batter being walked.

Once the defensive manager notifies the umpire he would like to no-pitch intentionally walk the batter, it will be too late for the defense to successfully appeal the following:  a missed base or a base left too soon, half swings, an improper batter (batting out of order), and misapplication of a rule (protest).

Just to clarify, this means on the previous batter, not on the current batter (being walked)

[Senor Azul]

Since Mr. noumpere wants things to be crystal clear I thought I would post the following case play I found. Even though it is an NFHS Softball case play I am pretty sure it is the same for high school baseball and it explains better how the intentional walk affects prior infractions. I have bolded the relevant part--

March 4, 2019 NFHS Softball Weekly Rule Interpretations SITUATION 3: B5 bats and advances to second base, however, she misses first base on her way to second. B6 should be the next proper batter, however, B7 comes to bat. As she is walking to the plate the defensive coach requests time and informs the plate umpire that he wants to intentionally walk B7. After B7 is awarded first base but before a pitch is thrown to B8, the defensive coach again approaches the plate umpire and appeals that B7 has batted out of order. RULING: B6, the player who should have batted, would be ruled out and B7 would be removed from first base and would be the next proper batter. Once B7 was intentionally walked, there can be no appeal of an infraction that occurred prior to the intentional walk. The defense could no longer appeal B5 missing first base, but they can still appeal B7 batting out of order until a pitch (legal or illegal) or an intentional walk has been awarded to the next batter.

[Senor Azul]

2018 NFHS rule 2

SECTION 4 BALL, BASE ON BALLS, INTENTIONAL BASE ON BALLS

ART. 2 . . . A base on balls is an award of first base (often referred to as a “walk”) if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 2.4.2 Situation:  B1 receives ball four and he or a teammate or coach of Team A immediately requests time. Ruling:  The umpire shall ignore the request and order B1 to go to first base, after which a player or coach of Team A may request time.

2019-2020 NCAA rule 6-1a

Note 2: The umpire shall not call time until a play has been completed. After a base on balls, the umpire shall not call time until the runner has stopped at first base.

OBR:  Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  In theory, an umpire should not grant time until all runners have reached their awarded bases. However, in practice, umpires may grant time when they are certain that no runner is attempting, or going to attempt, to advance beyond his award.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

2018 NFHS rule 2

SECTION 4 BALL, BASE ON BALLS, INTENTIONAL BASE ON BALLS

ART. 2 . . . A base on balls is an award of first base (often referred to as a “walk”) if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 2.4.2 Situation:  B1 receives ball four and he or a teammate or coach of Team A immediately requests time. Ruling:  The umpire shall ignore the request and order B1 to go to first base, after which a player or coach of Team A may request time.

2019-2020 NCAA rule 6-1a

Note 2: The umpire shall not call time until a play has been completed. After a base on balls, the umpire shall not call time until the runner has stopped at first base.

OBR:  Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  In theory, an umpire should not grant time until all runners have reached their awarded bases. However, in practice, umpires may grant time when they are certain that no runner is attempting, or going to attempt, to advance beyond his award.

I’m confused as to why you post this. Nothing above has anything to do with a no pitch intentional walk. I cited the relevant FED rule and you cited the relevant MilBUM section on no pitch IBB. 

This one is all about a 4 pitched balls walk. 

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Richvee, the OP asked about intentionally walking an improper batter and whether time could be called as soon as the batter was given ball four. There was no differentiation between an old-fashioned intentional walk and the new-fangled no-pitch intentional walk (and no mention of which rule set either).

If a player bats out of order, does anything stop the opposing manager from intentionally walking him and then immediately appealing? 

Assuming this is allowed, can the appeal be made as soon as the umpire grants the batter first base, or must they wait until the batter actually touches first?

As a fatter of mact, it was you who first replied to the question and it was you who mentioned a no-pitch intentional base on balls in your very first sentence.

Intentional walks with no pitches is not live. 

Then it was Mr. Rich Ives who responded to your mention of a no-pitch IBB by asking (twice) if there was an OBR rule about how to handle no-pitch IBB. You replied with an incomplete FED rule citation by only giving the article number (rule 5-1-3).

I can't find this in OBR.  Searched on "dead" and "time" and looked at both the definition of base on balls where the no pitch IW is permitted and in the batter becomes a runner rule.   What did I miss?

That’s when I posted the professional interpretation stating that the umpire shall call time on a no-pitch IBB (I thought that was what Mr. Rich Ives wanted to know—I could have been wrong there). Then Mr. noumpere wanted to clarify an aspect of what I posted. Then I posted the softball case play that I thought clarified things better than how Mr. noumpere had done it (that could have been another mistake on my part).

My last post listed the rules stating the umpire should not grant time until the batter-runner reaches and stops at first base. That was in response to your mention in your very first post that an umpire could grant time immediately after the batter is awarded first base. So, I am sorry if you are confused but your post has confused me as well. I do not see this thread as being “all about a 4 pitched balls walk.”

 

[yawetag]

While it's legal, I don't understand the rationale by the coach. Pitch to the batter; if he gets a hit then appeal the BOO. If he runs into an out of some kind, wait and see who they send to the plate next.

[Richvee]

37 minutes ago, yawetag said:

While it's legal, I don't understand the rationale by the coach. Pitch to the batter; if he gets a hit then appeal the BOO. If he runs into an out of some kind, wait and see who they send to the plate next.

Save pitches. 

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Richvee, the OP asked about intentionally walking an improper batter and whether time could be called as soon as the batter was given ball four. There was no differentiation between an old-fashioned intentional walk and the new-fangled no-pitch intentional walk (and no mention of which rule set either).

If a player bats out of order, does anything stop the opposing manager from intentionally walking him and then immediately appealing? 

Assuming this is allowed, can the appeal be made as soon as the umpire grants the batter first base, or must they wait until the batter actually touches first?

As a fatter of mact, it was you who first replied to the question and it was you who mentioned a no-pitch intentional base on balls in your very first sentence.

Intentional walks with no pitches is not live. 

Then it was Mr. Rich Ives who responded to your mention of a no-pitch IBB by asking (twice) if there was an OBR rule about how to handle no-pitch IBB. You replied with an incomplete FED rule citation by only giving the article number (rule 5-1-3).

I can't find this in OBR.  Searched on "dead" and "time" and looked at both the definition of base on balls where the no pitch IW is permitted and in the batter becomes a runner rule.   What did I miss?

That’s when I posted the professional interpretation stating that the umpire shall call time on a no-pitch IBB (I thought that was what Mr. Rich Ives wanted to know—I could have been wrong there). Then Mr. noumpere wanted to clarify an aspect of what I posted. Then I posted the softball case play that I thought clarified things better than how Mr. noumpere had done it (that could have been another mistake on my part).

Up to this point we're fine. We've both cited rules, interps that state, on a no pitch intentional walk, TIME IS CALLED AND THE BATTER IS AWARDED 1B

 

My last post listed the rules stating the umpire should not grant time until the batter-runner reaches and stops at first base.

When 4 balls have been thrown and the batter walks  

That was in response to your mention in your very first post that an umpire could grant time immediately after the batter is awarded first base.

That's not what my post says. And this isn't the question in the OP.
 

On 6/23/2019 at 12:13 AM, Richvee said:

Intentional walks with no pitches is not live. Time is called and and the batter awarded 1B, so I don’t think he would have to wait for him to reach base. 

So, I am sorry if you are confused but your post has confused me as well. I do not see this thread as being “all about a 4 pitched balls walk.”

 The thread isn't about base on balls when throwing 4  balls. Your post after the softball interp post was, and all I'm saying is that post is irrelevant to this conversation.  The thread is about NO PITCH Intentional walks. . 

 

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

2018 NFHS rule 2

SECTION 4 BALL, BASE ON BALLS, INTENTIONAL BASE ON BALLS

ART. 2 . . . A base on balls is an award of first base (often referred to as a “walk”) if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 2.4.2 Situation:  B1 receives ball four and he or a teammate or coach of Team A immediately requests time. Ruling:  The umpire shall ignore the request and order B1 to go to first base, after which a player or coach of Team A may request time.

2019-2020 NCAA rule 6-1a

Note 2: The umpire shall not call time until a play has been completed. After a base on balls, the umpire shall not call time until the runner has stopped at first base.

OBR:  Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  In theory, an umpire should not grant time until all runners have reached their awarded bases. However, in practice, umpires may grant time when they are certain that no runner is attempting, or going to attempt, to advance beyond his award.

I think this goes in the "When to Grant TO Thread."

[beerguy55]

On 6/24/2019 at 5:49 AM, yawetag said:

While it's legal, I don't understand the rationale by the coach. Pitch to the batter; if he gets a hit then appeal the BOO. If he runs into an out of some kind, wait and see who they send to the plate next.

Because while the player is still batting the offense has an opportunity to discover and correct their mistake...the instant IBB ensures your free out.

If you're not worried about that risk, then it would be a strategic decision based on the quality of the batter at the plate, the batter who missed their turn, and the batter who would come to the plate after you get your free out.   If the mytab hitter is really good you may just take your free out.   If the IBB ensures a weak batter gets out and a strong hitter comes up, you may wait to see what the batter does.  If you're not worried about the offense correcting their mistake.   I'm taking the free out about 999 times out of 1000.

 

[Richvee]

13 hours ago, noumpere said:

I think this goes in the "When to Grant TO Thread."

That makes sense. 

[spark2212]

On 6/24/2019 at 4:49 AM, yawetag said:

While it's legal, I don't understand the rationale by the coach. Pitch to the batter; if he gets a hit then appeal the BOO. If he runs into an out of some kind, wait and see who they send to the plate next.

It’s a free out. If you wait they might fix the problem.

[The Man in Blue]

I didn’t want to repost the whole thing, but from Senor Azul’s post:

OBR:  Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  In theory, an umpire should not grant time until all runners have reached their awarded bases. However, in practice, umpires may grant time when they are certain that no runner is attempting, or going to attempt, to advance beyond his award.

I would add: In theory, theory and practice are the same thing; but in practice, theory is a very different thing.