Does the run count?

[Guest Mark]

One out and runner on first and third.  Their is a fly ball that is caught and the runner from third scores on a legal tag-up.  However, the runner from first leaves early without tagging up and the fielder throws to first base to get the runner on a force play.  The runner that scored, scores before the force out at first.  Does the run count?

[noumpere]

14 minutes ago, Guest Mark said:

One out and runner on first and third.  Their is a fly ball that is caught and the runner from third scores on a legal tag-up.  However, the runner from first leaves early without tagging up and the fielder throws to first base to get the runner on a force play.  The runner that scored, scores before the force out at first.  Does the run count?

No, it's not a force play.  it's a time play.  If the run scored prior to the appeal, the run counts.  If the appeal happened first, the run does not count.

[Aging_Arbiter]

No.

[roothog66]

Of course the run counts. That's not a force out.

[BretMan]

This is probably about the sixth time I've seen this same question asked on various discussion forums so far this year. In that respect, we're trailing behind last year. But the season is young!

It won't surprise me one bit if by the end of this year I've seen this question asked at least a dozen times. As often as it comes up, it amazes me that in 20+ years I have NEVER had to make this call.

This one just keeps coming up again and again and again. And the common misconception is always that it's a force play (it's not). It kind of looks like a force play, because you have a fielder holding the ball and touching a base, the way most force plays are accomplished. But the definition of a force play is when a runner is forced to advance due to the batter becoming a runner. Whenever the batter is put out before safely reaching first base you can never have a force play available at any base (because the runners are no longer forced to advance).

So if it's not a force out, what is it?

This is an appeal play for a runner leaving base too soon on a caught fly ball. As far as the run scoring or not...see above answers.

[stkjock]

57 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

No.

ummm.. maybe you misread the OP, time play, run scores

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

No, it's not a force play.  it's a time play.  If the run scored prior to the appeal, the run counts.  If the appeal happened first, the run does not count.

practically speaking slim shot, yes, if R3 is lollygagging home, curious have you ever encountered such in a game you officated?

[noumpere]

14 minutes ago, BretMan said:

So if it's not a force out, what is it?

This is an appeal play for a runner leaving base too soon on a caught fly ball. As far as the run scoring or not...see above answers.

While I agree that this is not a Force Play, and that this is an Appeal Play, some Appeal Plays can also be Force Plays -- so making this particualr distinction might not be entirely helpful for the novice reader.

13 minutes ago, stkjock said:

ummm.. maybe you misread the OP, time play, run scores

practically speaking slim shot, yes, if R3 is lollygagging home, curious have you ever encountered such in a game you officated?

I have not seen it in the OP, but I have seen both R2 and R3 tagging (correctly) and R2 being out at third before R3 scores.

[Aging_Arbiter]

37 minutes ago, stkjock said:

ummm.. maybe you misread the OP, time play, run scores

practically speaking slim shot, yes, if R3 is lollygagging home, curious have you ever encountered such in a game you officated?

I did read it incorrectly.  I was going at No, it's not a force (as indicated in the op).  Nice catch! (pun intended)

[maven]

24 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I have not seen it in the OP, but I have seen both R2 and R3 tagging (correctly) and R2 being out at third before R3 scores.

I have seen R2, R3, 1 out, where F8 makes the catch, R3 tags and jogs home (because the ball is going to 2B), and R2 fails to tag and advances. The appeal at 2B happened (twice—different games!) before R3 scored.

[BretMan]

35 minutes ago, noumpere said:

While I agree that this is not a Force Play, and that this is an Appeal Play, some Appeal Plays can also be Force Plays -- so making this particualr distinction might not be entirely helpful for the novice reader.

My comments were limited to the play in question only. I hoped that was obvious...maybe not?

[stkjock]

36 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I have not seen it in the OP, but I have seen both R2 and R3 tagging (correctly) and R2 being out at third before R3 scores.

appreciate it

14 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

I did read it incorrectly.  I was going at No, it's not a force (as indicated in the op).  Nice catch! (pun intended)

yea, I figured you must have, too much of a lay up question for you to have it sail bye

10 minutes ago, maven said:

I have seen R2, R3, 1 out, where F8 makes the catch, R3 tags and jogs home (because the ball is going to 2B), and R2 fails to tag and advances. The appeal at 2B happened (twice—different games!) before R3 scored.

ABH- always be hustlin....  

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, maven said:

I have seen R2, R3, 1 out, where F8 makes the catch, R3 tags and jogs home (because the ball is going to 2B), and R2 fails to tag and advances. The appeal at 2B happened (twice—different games!) before R3 scored.

 

1 hour ago, stkjock said:

ABH- always be hustlin....

You don't even need R3 jogging - even if he sprints you will get burned if R2 is asleep.  Had R2/R3 fly ball to F8.  R3 tags, R2 goes five or six steps off base (instead of tagging as instructed)...F8 catches, R3 sprints home, F8 throws out R2 before getting back to base.   When you consider in many cases F8 has a legitimate shot of his throw beating R3 to the plate, his throw is certainly going to get to second base before R3 gets to the plate.

[maven]

9 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

You don't even need R3 jogging

I "need" it because I was reporting (accurately) what I witnessed.

[beerguy55]

38 minutes ago, maven said:

I "need" it because I was reporting (accurately) what I witnessed.

Not sure why I care what you witnessed or whether or not you need me to know you're telling the truth...not really relevant to my statement which was really only an extension of the situational possibilities.   Quoting the "hustling" quote, which was a response to your post, should have illustrated the context. 

 

[MadMax]

4 hours ago, Guest Mark said:

One out and runner on first and third.  Their is a fly ball that is caught and the runner from third scores on a legal tag-up.  However, the runner from first leaves early without tagging up and the fielder throws to first base to get the runner on a force play.  The runner that scored, scores before the force out at first.  Does the run count?

See here:

 

[stkjock]

On 5/3/2018 at 12:37 PM, maven said:

I have seen R2, R3, 1 out, where F8 makes the catch, R3 tags and jogs home (because the ball is going to 2B), and R2 fails to tag and advances. The appeal at 2B happened (twice—different games!) before R3 scored.

Newly Happend in the Yankee-Indian game today.  If Indians challenged a safe call at 3rd it would,have been very interesting to see the replay call for the run scoring 

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/gardners-sac-fly/c-2010097583

[maven]

3 hours ago, stkjock said:

Newly Happend in the Yankee-Indian game today.  If Indians challenged a safe call at 3rd it would,have been very interesting to see the replay call for the run scoring 

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/gardners-sac-fly/c-2010097583

As you know, replay is not an appeal, so this would have been a garden-variety time play.

Replay has many angles, more than TV gets, and they'd have one to line up that tag with the touch at HP. They'd rule on the time play and instruct the umpires what to call.

[stkjock]

3 hours ago, maven said:

As you know, replay is not an appeal, so this would have been a garden-variety time play.

Replay has many angles, more than TV gets, and they'd have one to line up that tag with the touch at HP. They'd rule on the time play and instruct the umpires what to call.

Yes, I realize, just a very similar play to the one you described.