FED Rule vs. Ground Rule

[VolUmp]

This certainly may have been discussed before.

Each year we have coaches who, when going over ground rules, will say, "Both feet need to be in bounds for a catch" when pointing to a dugout, out-of-play chalk line, gap in a fence, etc.  The FED Rule Book and Case Book clearly state just the opposite ... that one foot in bounds (on the ground) constitutes a legal catch.  We review this each year.

So, each year the debate is, "Do we go by the books, or do we risk showing up the home coach by pointing out that his ground rule cannot supercede a FED rule (unless, of course, there is a safety concern).  Our guys tend to stand pat and correct the coach if it's a "big" program.  Otherwise, they tend to bite their tongues and go by the coach's erroneous ground rule.

I'm interested in the consensus of this forum please.

[Jimurray]

Correct the missaplication of the ground rule. Easily done gently by explaining that there is a difference between "pro" and "HS". Why does this hapen every year and how many times does it happen? Your guys need to know the rules and have gonads.

[Stk004]

54 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Correct the missaplication of the ground rule. Easily done gently by explaining that there is a difference between "pro" and "HS". Why does this hapen every year and how many times does it happen? Your guys need to know the rules and have gonads.

To be fair you're okay with one foot in OBR, but it doesn't have to be on the ground. Which, the more I think about it, is probably the difference you were referring too.

[MadMax]

This is why I'm an advocate for not letting a coach explain the ground rules. I work a significant number of neutral site games and tournaments, and at those, there is a slim chance that either coach has much to do with the layout of the site. Furthermore, if it's a site I have not played / umpires at before, I make a practice of showing up 5-15 minutes earlier than usual and examining or at least walking the field. I then go over this with my partner(s) during the pregame, regardless if I'm PU or BU for this game. Thus, there's no chance of a bungled rule declarative because either my partner or I is doing nearly all the talking (albeit very brief), not a coach.

[JaxRolo]

Sometimes it is for safety purposes. They don't want a kid to go sliding and get hurt on the concrete so they want 2 feet in fair.

I can see that.

[ALStripes17]

Correct it every time. It's not a ground rule. It's a FED rule. Easy to explain and report back to the association to be sure it is consistently applied.

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[JaxRolo]

Just use common sense if it is indeed a danger to the kids then do the right thing.

[Jimurray]

55 minutes ago, JaxRolo said:

Sometimes it is for safety purposes. They don't want a kid to go sliding and get hurt on the concrete so they want 2 feet in fair.

I can see that.

Do they also not allow the player to be running so hard for a catch that he ends up catching and carrying into the concrete area?

[JaxRolo]

Do they also not allow the player to be running so hard for a catch that he ends up catching and carrying into the concrete area?

Like I said use common sense.

[MidAmUmp]

7 hours ago, MadMax said:

This is why I'm an advocate for not letting a coach explain the ground rules. I work a significant number of neutral site games and tournaments, and at those, there is a slim chance that either coach has much to do with the layout of the site. Furthermore, if it's a site I have not played / umpires at before, I make a practice of showing up 5-15 minutes earlier than usual and examining or at least walking the field. I then go over this with my partner(s) during the pregame, regardless if I'm PU or BU for this game. Thus, there's no chance of a bungled rule declarative because either my partner or I is doing nearly all the talking (albeit very brief), not a coach.

Let the head coach give the ground rules unless it's at a neutral site. Why piss off a coach before you've even put the ball in play??? His field, his rules. 

[MidAmUmp]

If you know right now that this is going to be an issue in the spring, contact your association and let them address it. Why wait until you go there and tell him ground rule is wrong? Let the guys who get paid "the big bucks" address it with the coach before the season starts. 

[lawump]

50 minutes ago, MidAmUmp said:

Let the head coach give the ground rules unless it's at a neutral site. Why piss off a coach before you've even put the ball in play??? His field, his rules. 

I'm going to disagree.  First, the umpire gives the ground rules in pro baseball (unless the umpire truly does not know the park).  So, there is precedence to the umpire doing this.

Now, I know we're talking about high school and not pro.  But, I do it in high school if I know the field.  [If I don't know the field, I just tell the coach, "take us around, coach".]  Among other things (1) it keeps the plate conference moving (no time for bad jokes from the coaches) (2) shows that you are totally prepared and focused on the game, and (3) sets the tone for the remainder of the game.  The only reaction I have ever gotten out of a head coach was (to paraphrase), "I've never had that happen before.  Are you sure you've never coached here?  That was awesome." 

I'm not saying that some head coach somewhere may not be pissed off, but I've never had it happen.

It is his field except for the period of time between my walking on to the field with my partner and our walking off the field.

 

[MidAmUmp]

13 minutes ago, lawump said:

I'm going to disagree.  First, the umpire gives the ground rules in pro baseball (unless the umpire truly does not know the park).  So, there is precedence to the umpire doing this.

Now, I know we're talking about high school and not pro.  But, I do it in high school if I know the field.  [If I don't know the field, I just tell the coach, "take us around, coach".]  Among other things (1) it keeps the plate conference moving (no time for bad jokes from the coaches) (2) shows that you are totally prepared and focused on the game, and (3) sets the tone for the remainder of the game.  The only reaction I have ever gotten out of a head coach was (to paraphrase), "I've never had that happen before.  Are you sure you've never coached here?  That was awesome." 

I'm not saying that some head coach somewhere may not be pissed off, but I've never had it happen.

It is his field except for the period of time between my walking on to the field with my partner and our walking off the field.

 

At the pro level the ground rules are printed - in the dressing room, in the dugouts and on the cards. The umpires are simply stating and clarifying what is written. 

I've filled in several times at the AA level. It basically goes - You guys have the ground rules? Any questions about them? I want to clarify a couple of things...

While I'm sure you're fully capable of establishing ground rules that adhere to the rules of the game and with good common sense...I don't have the same confidence in the guy assigned there tomorrow afternoon.

So unless the site has the ground rules posted, I would strongly encourage all of us to let the home team's head coach go over the ground rules. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, MidAmUmp said:

At the pro level the ground rules are printed - in the dressing room, in the dugouts and on the cards. The umpires are simply stating and clarifying what is written. 

I've filled in several times at the AA level. It basically goes - You guys have the ground rules? Any questions about them? I want to clarify a couple of things...

While I'm sure you're fully capable of establishing ground rules that adhere to the rules of the game and with good common sense...I don't have the same confidence in the guy assigned there tomorrow afternoon.

So unless the site has the ground rules posted, I would strongly encourage all of us to let the home team's head coach go over the ground rules. 

Off topic. There was a funny video out quite a few years ago where the clarification at the plate conference left everyone scratching their heads. 

Edited to add: This is not the instance I'm referring to but did everyone come away from this conference knowing what the status of the "bar" is?

 

[udbrky]

I like how everyone in this screenshot looks super confused

[VolUmp]

4 hours ago, JaxRolo said:

Sometimes it is for safety purposes. They don't want a kid to go sliding and get hurt on the concrete so they want 2 feet in fair.

I can see that.

Precisely what I was referring to in the OP.  One park in particular goes from grass to gravel to the bench (it's certainly not a dugout) where the bench surface is like skating on ice with metal cleats.  That's a safety concern, so we abide by the two feet in live ball area for a legal catch.

3 hours ago, MidAmUmp said:

If you know right now that this is going to be an issue in the spring, contact your association and let them address it. Why wait until you go there and tell him ground rule is wrong? Let the guys who get paid "the big bucks" address it with the coach before the season starts. 

I explained that in the OP.  For big programs, we are expected to correct it.  For lame programs, we are expected not to make waves.  Not worth it.  I don't like the inconsistency.

And to clarify ... I was referring to non-neutral sites.  At neutral sites, either the Home Coach or TD will discuss ground rules with us prior to the game and then we will review them with both coaches at the plate meeting.

[ALStripes17]

I explained that in the OP.  For big programs, we are expected to correct it.  For lame programs, we are expected not to make waves.  Not worth it.  I don't like the inconsistency.

And to clarify ... I was referring to non-neutral sites.  At neutral sites, either the Home Coach or TD will discuss ground rules with us prior to the game and then we will review them with both coaches at the plate meeting.

Do we keep players from scaling fences that may be dangerous? I'm sorry, but it's completely against the FED rule and there is no reason to go against it. If a player is going to go all out for a ball anyway, he's not going to think much about one or two feet as he nears a dead ball area. He's just going to be trying to catch the baseball. Follow the playing rule.

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[Jackrabbitslims]

At what point is the school responsible for providing a safe field that meets the rule requirements set forth by the fed. I can understand a rare situation, but when it is expected to happen that becomes a problem. The school has a responsibility to provide a safe field for the student athletes. We are required to enforce fed rules. If I just decided to change a rule that would be unacceptable. I see it as the same thing.

[mw94]

The illegal ground rule I run  into most often is the open field park, that has like the running track or concrete walk way 375 to 400 feet away from home plate  , and the home coach says  ground rule  triple or umpire discretion  ??   When we know by rule its 2 bases from the time of the pitch  by rule !   They all say its not fair!  and some umpire just go with it because not cause waves ! 

[noumpere]

16 minutes ago, mw94 said:

The illegal ground rule I run  into most often is the open field park, that has like the running track or concrete walk way 375 to 400 feet away from home plate  , and the home coach says  ground rule  triple or umpire discretion  ??   When we know by rule its 2 bases from the time of the pitch  by rule !   They all say its not fair!  and some umpire just go with it because not cause waves ! 

It looks like a "ground rule double" and an uncontested steal of third, to me.