When to Kill Type 2/B Obstruction?

[chalen]

(This was asked on Facebook, but the correct answers are always found here.)

Any rule set. R2. Less than two outs. Outfield base hit. R2 is obstructed rounding 3B and the umpire judges R2 will be protected home. R2 is tagged out at the plate while the batter-runner is heading for 2B. Do you kill the play at the time of the apparent out (and award R2 home, and award BR wherever you think he would have achieved without the obstruction), or do you leave the play live and wait for a play at 2B?

OBR 6.01(h)(2), "If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible." I interpret this to mean that if no play is being made on the obstructed runner AT THE TIME OF THE OBSTRUCTION, let everything play out.

[noumpere]

From some version of PBUC (emphasis added):

 

Under this section of the obstruction rule, the obstruction is to be signaled by the umpire pointing

laterally at the obstruction while calling loudly and clearly, "That's obstruction." The ball is not

dead, however, and the umpire shall allow play to continue until all play has ceased and no

further action is possible (see exception in NOTE (1) below). At that moment, the umpire shall

call "Time" and impose such penalties, if any, that in the umpire's judgment will nullify the act

of obstruction. It is important to note that in cases occurring under this section of the obstruction

rule, the umpire shall not call "Time" until all action has ceased and no further play is possible.

NOTE (1 ): If a runner is obstructed under this second section of the obstruction rule, play is to

proceed to completion-even if it results in a play later being made on the runner who was

previously obstructed. However, if such a play on a previously obstructed runner results in that

runner actually being tagged out before reaching the base to which he would have been awarded

because of the obstruction, the umpire shall in that case call "Time" at the moment the runner is

tagged out. The umpire shall then impose such penalties that will nullify the obstruction, which

will include, of course, the obstructed runner being awarded the base to which he would be

entitled because of the obstruction.

[lawump]

It is buried in the NCAA rulebook, but NCAA has the same rule in Rule 8-3-e NOTE:

"Note: If a runner is obstructed under this second section of the obstruction rule, play shall continue until its completion, even if it results in a play being made on the previously obstructed runner. If the play results in that runner being tagged out before he reaches the base he would have been awarded, the umpire shall call "Time" at the moment the runner is tagged out. The umpire shall then impose such penalties that would nullify the obstruction."

[DWDIII]

So where does BR end up? You would think 2B but what if without the obstruction R2 scores easily and the throw would go to 2B? Could you judge in that case that the outfielder would have thrown to 2B and the BR would have chosen to stay at 1B so keep him there? Just judgement, or am I missing the award of second for the B/R?

[udbrky]

54 minutes ago, DWDIII said:

So where does BR end up? You would think 2B but what if without the obstruction R2 scores easily and the throw would go to 2B? Could you judge in that case that the outfielder would have thrown to 2B and the BR would have chosen to stay at 1B so keep him there? Just judgement, or am I missing the award of second for the B/R?

Shouldn't punish the offense for obstruction. You can't get this much into what could have happened in different scenarios. Let the BR go as he is.

[indianaumpire15]

So in OP play, we kill it when R2 is out at home and the play on BR at 2nd doesn't happen?  Just want to make sure I'm comprehending this correctly.

Is this the same for FED rule set?

[maven]

16 minutes ago, indianaumpire15 said:

So in OP play, we kill it when R2 is out at home and the play on BR at 2nd doesn't happen?  Just want to make sure I'm comprehending this correctly.

Is this the same for FED rule set?

FIFY, and yes, FED is the same.

The rationale for leaving the ball live for OBS is to prevent the defense from gaining an unfair advantage from their infraction. So other runners, and the obstructed runner, may continue to run the bases following OBS.

When the obstructed runner is "put out" at a base that would have been part of his award, then it's too awkward just to stand there as if nothing has happened and no ruling is needed. So we kill it, award the obstructed runner his base, and award other runners the bases that they would have reach without the obstruction.

So if the BR is advancing to 2B on the throw to the plate, but the obstructed runner is put out there, we must judge whether the BR would have been safe at 2B had there been no obstruction. If so, we put him on 2B; if not, then we return him to 1B. Usually, if he's running properly, he'll get 2B on the throw home: if the defense might have had a play on him there, I'm still putting him on 2B. All benefit of the doubt to the offense here.

[udbrky]

3 hours ago, maven said:

FIFY, and yes, FED is the same.

The rationale for leaving the ball live for OBS is to prevent the defense from gaining an unfair advantage from their infraction. So other runners, and the obstructed runner, may continue to run the bases following OBS.

When the obstructed runner is "put out" at a base that would have been part of his award, then it's too awkward just to stand there as if nothing has happened and no ruling is needed. So we kill it, award the obstructed runner his base, and award other runners the bases that they would have reach without the obstruction.

So if the BR is advancing to 2B on the throw to the plate, but the obstructed runner is put out there, we must judge whether the BR would have been safe at 2B had there been no obstruction. If so, we put him on 2B; if not, then we return him to 1B. Usually, if he's running properly, he'll get 2B on the throw home: if the defense might have had a play on him there, I'm still putting him on 2B. All benefit of the doubt to the offense here.

I like how as I read this, I thought "but what if BR does get thrown out at 2nd? And you deliver!

[maven]

4 hours ago, udbrky said:

I like how as I read this, I thought "but what if BR does get thrown out at 2nd? And you deliver!

All at the same low price.

[tempetoro]

On this play if the runner is obstructed before 3rd base and does not attempt to run home because of the obstruction, does he get awarded home or does he have to attempt to get to the plate to be awarded home? 

[maven]

9 minutes ago, tempetoro said:

On this play if the runner is obstructed before 3rd base and does not attempt to run home because of the obstruction, does he get awarded home or does he have to attempt to get to the plate to be awarded home? 

The award is umpire judgment regarding what would nullify the act of obstruction. The basic idea is: if the OBS had not occurred, what base would the runner probably have reached safely? Award that base.

In judging that, we can take into account action before, during, and after the act of obstruction. So, if it's borderline whether the runner would have beaten the ball to the plate — a good throw would make it a close play — but the throw sails over F2's head all the way to the (60' deep) backstop, then we should award home. OTOH, if a runner has to take 2 additional steps to avoid a slightly misplaced F5 (small but warranted OBS), and he's thrown out at the plate by 20', the award should probably be 3B, so that the out at HP stands.

The OBS infraction can be ruled on immediately, and should be both signaled and verbalized. The award must sometimes wait until we have all the info we need to determine what would nullify the OBS.

[noumpere]

9 minutes ago, tempetoro said:

On this play if the runner is obstructed before 3rd base and does not attempt to run home because of the obstruction, does he get awarded home or does he have to attempt to get to the plate to be awarded home? 

Would he have reached home without the OBS?  That's all you need to know.  The runner does not need to try to advance (but if he advances at a running speed, it makes the determination easier).