Possible ADA Issue

[tankmjg24]

So this conversation presented itself during my associations meeting the other day.  One of the schools that we cover has an assistant coach who is in a fully motorized wheelchair.  At some of the schools, his wheelchair is too wide and the dugouts are too small for him to enter the dugout.  Where would you place him for him to still be able to coach yet be in a safe location?

  

[scrounge]

*I* wouldn't place him anywhere, it's not my issue. They can extend the dugouts if need be under existing rules. If that doesn't work, he is allowed to occupy the coaching box. There's just gotta be some dead ball area or extended dugout or something they could use. But I'll make every possible effort not to touch this one with a 100 foot pole.

[johnnyg08]

Yep, they just need to extend the dugout away from home plate.

But realistically ADA compliance falls more on the facility than the umpire. 

The rules fully support accommodating a situation like this...stick within the rules like you would with anything else and you'll be fine.

 

[johnpatrick]

I know I'm an outlier on this issue.  The coach has been through so much in his life.  He's trying to have as normal a life he can given his limitations.  He's a source of inspiration and a lesson in tolerance for everyone on the field.  Lets make a reasonable accommodation to allow him on the field.  How about asking him what would work for him?  If it's reasonable to you, make it happen.  How about having the grounds crew draw a box outside the far end of the dugout next to the fence and making a ground rule calling it dead ball territory.

[ALStripes17]

I know I'm an outlier on this issue.  The coach has been through so much in his life.  He's trying to have as normal a life he can given his limitations.  He's a source of inspiration and a lesson in tolerance for everyone on the field.  Lets make a reasonable accommodation to allow him on the field.  How about asking him what would work for him?  If it's reasonable to you, make it happen.  How about having the grounds crew draw a box outside the far end of the dugout next to the fence and making a ground rule calling it dead ball territory.

That's not being an outlier. No one has a differing thought from what you described. We have rules in the rule book that allow for an accommodation here.

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[udbrky]

Is that safe? Do you have someone guard him with a glove? Just thinking if he's in a fully motorized wheelchair, what happens if someone rips a foul ball/airlifts a ball right at him?

[Rich Ives]

12 minutes ago, udbrky said:

Is that safe? Do you have someone guard him with a glove? Just thinking if he's in a fully motorized wheelchair, what happens if someone rips a foul ball/airlifts a ball right at him?

FED says he's allowed to be there.

 

2001 Rules: Coaches: "Coaches may wear prostheses and use mobility devices."

2011 Case Book:  3.2.1 SITUATION A: The first-base coach occupies the coaching box in a wheel
chair. RULING: This is legal.

[udbrky]

Well, yeah, but I'm just thinking about him getting hit by balls.

Edited March 23, 2016 by udbrky
I can't think of a way to say that that doesn't result in "Phrasing!"

[Tksjewelry]

Well, yeah, but I'm just thinking about him getting hit by balls.

This isn't within your wheelhouse. If he's capable enough to coach then he's capable of understanding the risks and if he wants accommodation of someone being a bodyguard, he'll ask for that. Don't offer.

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[udbrky]

Yeah, I meant you collective. Just thinking logistically.

 

But what if he does want a bodyguard and requests it? This would be ok, if the dugout is extended in my understanding, right? If kids sit down there, they need a helmet right? Even though it's a dead ball area?

[johnnyg08]

Use the rules solve a problem, not to create one.  It's not our job to determine of the coach is a raging prick or the nicest person on the planet.  Either way he/she gets the same protection within the rules. 

 

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, udbrky said:

But what if he does want a bodyguard and requests it? This would be ok, if the dugout is extended in my understanding, right? If kids sit down there, they need a helmet right? Even though it's a dead ball area?

See rule 1-5.

 

And, at the risk of this sounding too asshole-ish, let me say this:  A few days ago someone commended maven on his rules knowledge (and I agree) and said something like "I wish I had 10% of his knowledge."  Well, here's one way to get it -- try looking stuff up yourself, instead of just posting a question on-line.  Sure, you (usually) get the answer here, but you will learn much, much more if you look through the book yourself.  You'll find nuances that aren't perhaps covered here.  You'll find other rules you'd never noticed before.  You'll find errors and contradictions (some real; some just seeming to be) that can help your understanding of the intent behind the rule.  You'll find references to other plays that are being discussed here.  (Most of this can best be found by perusing the hard-copy books, not just searching on-line for a particular phrase).  You'll see something that happened in your game last week (or, more importantly, with a slight variation *could have* happened in your game last week), and now you'll know how to handle it.

 

Then, after you've done that, if you still have a question (rule 1 says this but rule 2 implies something different; rule 3 skirts around this issue but doesn't really address this particular situation), come ask it -- and provide your references that lead to the confusion.

 

Note, too, that this isn't really directed (just) at udbky or this particular question.  It's something that's been building over several days here and finally reached the boiling point.  rant off.

[ALStripes17]

Yeah, I meant you collective. Just thinking logistically.

 

But what if he does want a bodyguard and requests it? This would be ok, if the dugout is extended in my understanding, right? If kids sit down there, they need a helmet right? Even though it's a dead ball area?

If they're in a dead ball area, it's exactly like the dugout.

If he requests a bodyguard in the coach's box, that becomes a different issue. I don't think I would adhere to that request honestly because it's more people in live ball territory. Although we could possibly allow (authorize) an individual to be out of the dugout with a helmet to protect him.

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[MadMax]

27 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

If they're in a dead ball area, it's exactly like the dugout.

If he requests a bodyguard in the coach's box, that becomes a different issue. I don't think I would adhere to that request honestly because it's more people in live ball territory. Although we could possibly allow (authorize) an individual to be out of the dugout with a helmet to protect him.

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I'm seeing what you're saying as not unlike an exposed, live bullpen. I think Baseball now encourages (enforces?) a Protector (or "Sentinel", wouldn't it be?) to stand near a bullpen catcher receiving pitches from a bullpen pitcher. 

[tankmjg24]

There are very few fields in my area where you have the ability to extend the dugout towards the outfield.  Most fields have little to none foul territory and the dugouts are smaller and behind a fence.  I have included a drawing of the field where I had this team just the other day.  The red lines are the fence, blue lines the dugout, and the black star where the assistant coach was.  This particular field may have 10-15 feet or so of foul territory around the home plate area, and from the dugout to the outfield fence space is nonexistent.  The head coach asked if this was an alright spot for his assistant as he was not sure where else he could be.  Our response was if he felt comfortable there it was alright with us.  As a group, we pretty much decided to allow him to go where he is comfortable as long as it is not determined to be an area  where he or any of the players may be in danger. 

[udbrky]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

See rule 1-5.

 

And, at the risk of this sounding too asshole-ish, let me say this:  A few days ago someone commended maven on his rules knowledge (and I agree) and said something like "I wish I had 10% of his knowledge."  Well, here's one way to get it -- try looking stuff up yourself, instead of just posting a question on-line.  Sure, you (usually) get the answer here, but you will learn much, much more if you look through the book yourself.  You'll find nuances that aren't perhaps covered here.  You'll find other rules you'd never noticed before.  You'll find errors and contradictions (some real; some just seeming to be) that can help your understanding of the intent behind the rule.  You'll find references to other plays that are being discussed here.  (Most of this can best be found by perusing the hard-copy books, not just searching on-line for a particular phrase).  You'll see something that happened in your game last week (or, more importantly, with a slight variation *could have* happened in your game last week), and now you'll know how to handle it.

 

Then, after you've done that, if you still have a question (rule 1 says this but rule 2 implies something different; rule 3 skirts around this issue but doesn't really address this particular situation), come ask it -- and provide your references that lead to the confusion.

 

Note, too, that this isn't really directed (just) at udbky or this particular question.  It's something that's been building over several days here and finally reached the boiling point.  rant off.

I looked at rule 1-5 and it does not specify live ball area in article 1. It does cover removing the helmet in live ball area. It is an extension of the dugout, but is still leaving them pretty unprotected. 

It seems to me that even though it's dead ball territory, it should be treated like live ball territory. 

I am re-familiarizing myself with the rules. I'm on my 2nd read through since February (rule, case, manual). I had read the OBR at least 2x per year, but took 13 years off. 

[noumpere]

52 minutes ago, tankmjg24 said:

. 

Would you let a coach stand there if he wasn't in a wheel chair?  The coach gets all the rights -- no more, no less -- than any other coach.

5 minutes ago, udbrky said:

It seems to me that even though it's dead ball territory, it should be treated like live ball territory. 

 

The rule lists everyone who must wear a helmet.  If it's not listed, there's no need to wear one.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

 

FED 1.2.4  "When the dugout is temporarily extended, for any reason, it shall be extended toward the outfield on a line parallel to the foul line.  The extension of the dugout area shall be equally applied for both teams."

 

[Mudisfun]

I agree that the rule of how to extend the dugout does not support placing the coach in this location. I would 'extend' their dugout inside the fence (red line) and make that area DBT. If there is a serious safety concern then place either a safety player inside the newly created DBT or place a screen between the coach and the batter acting as a protective fence. But either way DBT...  And make sure you extend the opposing side the same distances to make the game fair.

I think if you allow him to the HP side of the dugout then if he or someone else is injured you are opening yourself to issues... Plus the possibility of interfering with a play by the catcher seems pretty great if he is that close to the plate area.