Fed missed HP appeal

[Guest Bozzle_Bam]

Fed Rules. R2, 2 out. B gets a base hit. R2 touches 3B, passes but does not touch HP. BR is thrown out at 2B for the third out. After the 3rd out R2 comes back and touches HP, then the defense appeals the missed HP touch. Can R2 fix his missed HP touch after there are 3 outs ?

[Senor Azul]

The plain language of Federation rule 9-1-1 is really all you need to know and rely on:

“A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning.”

It’s really as simple as that. Unfortunately, Fed does not have a case book play that is precisely on point for this question. Perhaps they just don’t think it is necessary.

The BRD (2014 edition) adds this Federation interpretation:

Scoring: Runs: Scored after Third Out: At Plate

If a runner crosses the plate but fails to touch it, the run counts if the defense does not appeal. (8-2 Pen)

Again, Fed is rather sparing with explanatory language—no exceptions or conditions listed. If a runner does not legally touch home before the third out is made, then he would be subject to appeal. So the call you are leaning toward making is correct.

[noumpere]

11 hours ago, jjskitours said:

I must admit after reading through this thread I'm still not 100% certain what the NFHS rule is when R2 comes back and touches the plate AFTER the 3rd out at 2nd and BEFORE the appeal that he missed the plate. If the appeal is made AFTER R2 corrected his mistake, I'm still leaning toward calling R2 out, no run scores. Is this correct and if so best rule and/or Case Book reference for NFHS?

There's nothing specific in FED.  You can either use the OBR interp or make up your own.

[Replacematt]

On 2/4/2016 at 3:37 PM, Senor Azul said:

From the Jaksa/Roder rules interpretation manual:

 

“If a runner misses home plate and does not return to touch it, a time play is judged according to the time he passed the plate. If he returns to touch home, the passing of the plate is negated and the time play is judged according to the actual touch of the plate.”

 

Which means that if a runner corrects his mistake after the third out, he has nullified his own run.

[indianaumpire15]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

There's nothing specific in FED.  You can either use the OBR interp or make up your own.

I am no expert, but I would usually error on the side of precedent set by OBR interp.  But, I also like to error on the side of Maven.  So, given it would be a high school game, I'm probably going to let the retouch happen as long as the defense can appeal.

[ricka56]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

There's nothing specific in FED.  You can either use the OBR interp or make up your own.

What is specific in Fed (as Maven points out), is what a runner can't do to correct a base running error (8-2-6d). The OP is not one of the prohibitions. If it is not prohibited (and absent a OBR type interp), then it would follow that the error correction is allowed. 

Personally, I think that it is only fair that if the defense has the opportunity to appeal the out, the offense should have the opportunity to keep the scoring. 

I think there are some sticky rule problems that would be fixed and would make more sense if they just said that the advantageous 4th out replaces the original 3rd out (which essentially it does). Everyone knows that there are only 3 outs per half inning no more that 3. 

[jjskitours]

23 hours ago, ricka56 said:

What is specific in Fed (as Maven points out), is what a runner can't do to correct a base running error (8-2-6d). The OP is not one of the prohibitions. If it is not prohibited (and absent a OBR type interp), then it would follow that the error correction is allowed. 

Personally, I think that it is only fair that if the defense has the opportunity to appeal the out, the offense should have the opportunity to keep the scoring. 

I think there are some sticky rule problems that would be fixed and would make more sense if they just said that the advantageous 4th out replaces the original 3rd out (which essentially it does). Everyone knows that there are only 3 outs per half inning no more that 3. 

Well I guess it's a good thing that the likelihood of this ever occurring is very slim. Still no consensus on whether to score the run or take it off the board.

[stkjock]

this question came up on a baseball board I frequent, poster is saying in NJ Fed has this interp:

 

Quote

Rule 9-1-1: A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning.

Since runner missed the plate and a third out was made before he could touch the plate, the umpire cannot signal, "Score that run!"

anyone can confirm?

[BT_Blue]

I don't believe that would be correct. As not doing so would cause an unfair advantage for the defense.

I believe the proper way of doing it would be to "score that run". Then if properly appealed, call the runner out and take the run off.

[maven]

On 2/16/2016 at 10:48 AM, jjskitours said:

Well I guess it's a good thing that the likelihood of this ever occurring is very slim. Still no consensus on whether to score the run or take it off the board.

I don't see any disagreement in the thread.

1. When a runner passes HP without touching it before the third out, he has scored on a time play.
2. If the defense appeals within their window, the run is nullified.
3. If the runner returns to correct his mistake after the third out, it's still a time play, and the time of his touch is after the third out: the run is nullified.

I would apply the same ruling in all codes (and for the same reasons).

Mechanically, it would be crucial to "score that run!" immediately when the defense recorded the 3rd out. That would maximize their opportunity to appeal the missed base.

There is no provision in the rules that would allow the umpire either to deny a proper appeal or to ignore a runner's effort to correct his mistake. They must be handled in order of occurrence.

Also: there's no such thing as "NJ FED," no matter what that guy thinks.

[stkjock]

24 minutes ago, maven said:

Also: there's no such thing as "NJ FED," no matter what that guy thinks.

So to be more precise on the NJ part - this was what was posted:

 

Quote

The NJ state interpreter differs:

 

 

Quote

I don't see any disagreement in the thread.

1. When a runner passes HP without touching it before the third out, he has scored on a time play.
2. If the defense appeals within their window, the run is nullified.
3. If the runner returns to correct his mistake after the third out, it's still a time play, and the time of his touch is after the third out: the run is nullified.

I would apply the same ruling in all codes (and for the same reasons).

Mechanically, it would be crucial to "score that run!" immediately when the defense recorded the 3rd out. That would maximize their opportunity to appeal the missed base.

There is no provision in the rules that would allow the umpire either to deny a proper appeal or to ignore a runner's effort to correct his mistake. They must be handled in order of occurrence.

however if he corrected it before the thrid out was recorded, then it would then that run would still count?

 

interesting that the runner cannot correct his miss in this case - thanks Maven 

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, stkjock said:

however if he corrected it before the thrid out was recorded, then it would then that run would still count?

 

Of course.  Take away all the extraneous s*** and this just becomes "Rx touches the plate before the (non-force) third out" -- it's obvious.

[beerguy55]

On 2/15/2016 at 9:28 AM, ricka56 said:

I think there are some sticky rule problems that would be fixed and would make more sense if they just said that the advantageous 4th out replaces the original 3rd out (which essentially it does). Everyone knows that there are only 3 outs per half inning no more that 3. 

Not essentially, exactly.  From a score keeping perspective the so called fourth out replaces the previous third out.  The put out and assist(s) of the "original third out" are nullified.  And the runner previously ruled out becomes LOB.   Only three outs are recorded.  The pitcher does not get credit for 1 1/3 innings (by rule, a pitcher is credited with 1/3 inning with every putout).

 

5 hours ago, stkjock said:

this question came up on a baseball board I frequent, poster is saying in NJ Fed has this interp:

Rule 9-1-1: A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning.

Since runner missed the plate and a third out was made before he could touch the plate, the umpire cannot signal, "Score that run!"

anyone can confirm?

I would say this is a terrible interpretation, and anyone making such an interpretation neither played, nor umpired, the game.

Of course the umpire needs to signal "score that run".  The score keeper needs to know if a run scores...and that run scores if the defense doesn't appeal.  And the defense needs to know a run is scored there so they can have an opportunity to appeal if they noticed the miss.

 

[maven]

2 hours ago, stkjock said:

interesting that the runner cannot correct his miss in this case - thanks Maven 

That's not strictly true: it's just that his doing so can in itself—without a defensive appeal—nullify his run due to the time play.

I have actually seen a version of this play: R1, R2, 2 outs. The batter hits a single to the gap in RF. R2 trots home, R1 advances to 3B, and the ball goes to 3B to get him. R2, nearing the plate, turns to watch the play at 3B and continues to "back up" toward HP, missing the plate. Just as he is stepping to touch HP, R1 is retired by a great throw from F9. No run.

F2 was also watching the action at 3B and did not see the missed base. If R2 has simply continued on to the dugout, his run would have counted (I didn't have time to score it before I had to nullify it).

[stkjock]

Ahh,  so if home is missed on a play where a third out is made, the runner is in a no win situation. Thanks @maven for the added details

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, stkjock said:

Ahh,  so if home is missed on a play where a third out is made, the runner is in a no win situation. Thanks @maven for the added details

Well, the runner can hope for no appeal.

[ricka56]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Not essentially, exactly.  From a score keeping perspective the so called fourth out replaces the previous third out.  The put out and assist(s) of the "original third out" are nullified.  And the runner previously ruled out becomes LOB.   Only three outs are recorded.  The pitcher does not get credit for 1 1/3 innings (by rule, a pitcher is credited with 1/3 inning with every putout).

Thanks for the clarification. Knowledge like that will come in handy when I reach my life-long aspiration of becoming a baseball scorekeeper.