Fed missed HP appeal

[Guest Bozzle_Bam]

Fed Rules. R2, 2 out. B gets a base hit. R2 touches 3B, passes but does not touch HP. BR is thrown out at 2B for the third out. After the 3rd out R2 comes back and touches HP, then the defense appeals the missed HP touch. Can R2 fix his missed HP touch after there are 3 outs ?

[maven]

Yes. He can fix it until he enters the dugout (non-FED differ when the window closes).

We allow that because the defense can still appeal for the advantageous 4th out until the infielders leave fair territory (or... or...).

[Senor Azul]

It’s a good thing this question is about Fed rules because the runner could not fix his base running infraction by rule and interpretation under Official Baseball Rules:

From the 2014 PBUC (paragraph 6.3, p. 50):

If home plate is missed during a time play, the umpire should immediately rule on the time play even if the runner misses the plate. The defense is required to recognize that the plate has been missed. If the defense properly appeals, the umpire should then reverse his prior decision and cancel the run. Even if the runner has returned to touch the plate prior to the appeal, the defense’s appeal is sustained because no run may score after the third out is made. (See OBR 5.08a.)

[GreyhoundAggie]

does this apply any different in NCAA?

[Cav]

NFHS: Am I missing something?

R2 passed HP before BR's unforced 3d out at 2B.  "The run scores.  Score the run."

R2 returns and touches HP after BR's unforced 3d out, but before the appeal.  No call.

During a live or dead ball, the D properly appeals R2 missed HP which is upheld because: (1) R2 did not legally touch HP before the 3D unforced out; or, (2) R2 cannot rectify a base running infraction after the 3D out; or, (3) It is an advantageous fourth out only because it nullifies a run; or, (4) Something else.  Phone call to the press box.

NFHS 8-2-6

NHFS CB 9.1.1F?  

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, GreyhoundAggie said:

does this apply any different in NCAA?

I would apply the OBR interp in NCAA games.

[maven]

28 minutes ago, Cav said:

NFHS: Am I missing something?

R2 passed HP before BR's unforced 3d out at 2B.  "The run scores.  Score the run."

R2 returns and touches HP after BR's unforced 3d out, but before the appeal.  No call.

During a live or dead ball, the D properly appeals R2 missed HP which is upheld because: (1) R2 did not legally touch HP before the 3D unforced out; or, (2) R2 cannot rectify a base running infraction after the 3D out; or, (3) It is an advantageous fourth out only because it nullifies a run; or, (4) Something else.  Phone call to the press box.

NFHS 8-2-6

NHFS CB 9.1.1F?  

8-2-6 says nothing about rectifying an infraction before the 3rd out. It states (8-2-6d) that a runner may not return if he as touched a base beyond the appealable base after the ball has become dead, has left the field (that is, entered the dugout), or a following runner has scored. As none of those apply to the OP, the runner may return to correct his infraction.

9.1.1F seems to have no application to this play. It concerns a retouch appeal for a 4th out that is denied because not advantageous (it cancels no run).

The OBR ruling relies on the equivalent in that code of FED 9-1-1: a runner scores when he "legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning." One could argue that FED should have the same interpretation as OBR, and cancel this run because the runner touched — not acquired, but actually touched — HP after the 3rd out.

We should understand, however, that this interpretation has an odd consequence. Suppose there's no appeal by the defense. If the runner does NOT return to touch after the 3rd out, then his run would count. If he DOES return to touch after the third out, then on this interpretation we would cancel his run? Since when do we punish the offense for rectifying a baserunning error?

[ricka56]

14 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

It’s a good thing this question is about Fed rules because the runner could not fix his base running infraction by rule and interpretation under Official Baseball Rules:

From the 2014 PBUC (paragraph 6.3, p. 50):

If home plate is missed during a time play, the umpire should immediately rule on the time play even if the runner misses the plate. The defense is required to recognize that the plate has been missed. If the defense properly appeals, the umpire should then reverse his prior decision and cancel the run. Even if the runner has returned to touch the plate prior to the appeal, the defense’s appeal is sustained because no run may score after the third out is made. (See OBR 5.08a.)

Common sense (IMO) says that this runner (in jeopardy for missing HP) should be able to avoid the appeal by touching HP even after the 3rd out. But this PBUC interp definitively states otherwise for OBR.

1 hour ago, maven said:

We should understand, however, that this interpretation has an odd consequence. Suppose there's no appeal by the defense. If the runner does NOT return to touch after the 3rd out, then his run would count. If he DOES return to touch after the third out, then on this interpretation we would cancel his run? Since when do we punish the offense for rectifying a baserunning error?

I disagree that we would remove the score after the runner touched HP after the 3rd out with the OBR interp. The act of him touching HP action would be moot/have no effect because the half inning was over (3 outs). It may give the defense a hint that something was amiss (appealable), but I wouldn't take the run off the board without an appeal.  

A sense of fair play would suggest that this runner could avoid the appeal out, by touching HP, but a strict interp of Fed 9-1-1 would not support that. So why is Fed different ? Is it because there is no similar Fed interp ? Or is there a Fed rule/interp that says that this baserunning error can be fixed after the third (non-forced) out.

[Cav]

1 hour ago, maven said:

8-2-6 says nothing about rectifying an infraction before the 3rd out. It states (8-2-6d) that a runner may not return if he as touched a base beyond the appealable base after the ball has become dead, has left the field (that is, entered the dugout), or a following runner has scored. As none of those apply to the OP, the runner may return to correct his infraction.

9.1.1F seems to have no application to this play. It concerns a retouch appeal for a 4th out that is denied because not advantageous (it cancels no run).

The OBR ruling relies on the equivalent in that code of FED 9-1-1: a runner scores when he "legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning." One could argue that FED should have the same interpretation as OBR, and cancel this run because the runner touched — not acquired, but actually touched — HP after the 3rd out.

We should understand, however, that this interpretation has an odd consequence. Suppose there's no appeal by the defense. If the runner does NOT return to touch after the 3rd out, then his run would count. If he DOES return to touch after the third out, then on this interpretation we would cancel his run? Since when do we punish the offense for rectifying a baserunning error?

 

NFHS 9-1-1 reads, A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning [my emphasis.]

R2 did not legally advance to and touch HP before the 3d unforced out.  R2 advanced to HP, but he only touched it after BR made the 3d unforced out. 

(8.2.2M is close, but there is no mention of the number of outs prior to the action.)

I would not cancel/nullify the run if R2 were to return to legally touch HP after the BR’s unforced 3d out without appeal.  The action warrants no call; I already scored him and the D is attempting to make neither a play nor an appeal.

I punish the O for rectifying a base running error whenever they score illegally and the D does its job of seeing and appealing the infraction.

 

[maven]

2 hours ago, Cav said:

 

NFHS 9-1-1 reads, A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning [my emphasis.]

R2 did not legally advance to and touch HP before the 3d unforced out.  R2 advanced to HP, but he only touched it after BR made the 3d unforced out. 

I would not cancel/nullify the run if R2 were to return to legally touch HP after the BR’s unforced 3d out without appeal.  The action warrants no call; I already scored him and the D is attempting to make neither a play nor an appeal.

 

The highlighted sentences seem to contradict each other. According to the first, and applying 9-1-1 strictly, you cannot award a score. According to the second, you would do exactly that.

OTOH, if we follow the standard interpretation and treat a runner as having acquired a base by passing, rather than touching it (pending appeal by the defense), then we do award a score to an unappealed runner who misses HP. But then we're not reading 9-1-1 strictly.

If we're not going to interpret 9-1-1 strictly, then why shouldn't we allow R2 to correct his baserunning error after the 3rd out, especially in light of the explicit window expressed in 8-2-6 (which he is within)?

[Cav]

I hope we're not arguing the same thing.  You seem like a smart guy and I know I'm a smartass, so the probability of us both being correct is pretty high.

Above I stated: R2 passed [but did not touch] HP before BR's unforced 3d out at 2B.  "The run scores.  Score the run." 

That is and has been my mechanic for a while now for games played using the major codes, NFHS being one of them.  Do you not use that same mechanic?   

 

 

 

 

[GreyhoundAggie]

The question is would you use this mechanic since you didn't see a touch of home plate. For plays at the plate you usually don't do anything. Using the mechanic could indicate that you have a touch of HP. It's a weird play for sure.

[Rich Ives]

22 minutes ago, Cav said:

I hope we're not arguing the same thing.  You seem like a smart guy and I know I'm a smartass, so the probability of us both being correct is pretty high.

Above I stated: R2 passed [but did not touch] HP before BR's unforced 3d out at 2B.  "The run scores.  Score the run." 

That is and has been my mechanic for a while now for games played using the major codes, NFHS being one of them.  Do you not use that same mechanic?   

 

 

 

 

 

If it's way before and everyone in the park knows it just keep quiet. You don't say "score the run" every time a runner scores do you?

For a close play do whatever you would do if the runner did touch the plate. Doing something different it a tipoff.

[Cav]

9 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

 

If it's way before and everyone in the park knows it just keep quiet. You don't say "score the run" every time a runner scores do you?

For a close play do whatever you would do if the runner did touch the plate. Doing something different it a tipoff.

I was writing about the latter on a time play at the plate.  And, no, I don't announce every run that scores.

[maven]

The original question concerned the rules and how to interpret them in the OP. Let's not get sidetracked on a mechanics question.

[Senor Azul]

From Carl Childress’ BRD (2014 edition, Section 510, pp.304-5):

Play 291-510  R2, 2 outs. The batter singles to center field. The throw to the plate is relayed to second base, and R2 misses home plate JUST BEFORE the batter-runner is tagged out. R2 returns to touch the plate after the out at second. RULING: At all levels, the runner is subject to appeal for failing to touch home plate.

[Cav]

Maven, I wasn't purposely going to mechanics as an hijack, but I'll try to steer my remarks back to the rules.  I know what I want to write, but it isn't always read the way I think I wrote it.  

And thanks, SA, for CC's input.  I used to really like his insight, but now I'm too cheap to buy his pubs.

Let me take a different tack.  Your first post was...

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 6:36 PM, maven said:

Yes. He can fix [his missed base infraction] until he enters the dugout (non-FED differ when the window closes).

We allow that because the defense can still appeal for the advantageous 4th out until the infielders leave fair territory (or... or...).

What is your NFHS call if R2 who passed, but did not touch HP came back and touched HP after the BR's unforced 3d out but before the D properly appeals the missed base?

 

 

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, GreyhoundAggie said:

The question is would you use this mechanic since you didn't see a touch of home plate. For plays at the plate you usually don't do anything. Using the mechanic could indicate that you have a touch of HP. It's a weird play for sure.

Yes, you would use this mechanic on a close time-play.

 

the "no call" at home is used when there's a tag play at the plate, but the tag is missed and the plate is missed and the runner remains in the vicinity of home.  (And, I guess, it's also used when a runner clearly reaches the plate without a play and clearly before any third out -- as happens in 99% of the runs scored)

[maven]

11 hours ago, Cav said:

What is your NFHS call if R2 who passed, but did not touch HP came back and touched HP after the BR's unforced 3d out but before the D properly appeals the missed base?

You just quoted my ruling.

On 2/2/2016 at 6:36 PM, maven said:

Yes. He can fix it until he enters the dugout (non-FED differ when the window closes).

We allow that because the defense can still appeal for the advantageous 4th out until the infielders leave fair territory (or... or...).

 

[ricka56]

14 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From Carl Childress’ BRD (2014 edition, Section 510, pp.304-5):

Play 291-510  R2, 2 outs. The batter singles to center field. The throw to the plate is relayed to second base, and R2 misses home plate JUST BEFORE the batter-runner is tagged out. R2 returns to touch the plate after the out at second. RULING: At all levels, the runner is subject to appeal for failing to touch home plate.

@maven, Then you must believe that Carl has it wrong here for Fed ? 

[GreyhoundAggie]

MY wendelstedt manual has a similar ruling. Runner cannot correct a missed base after the third out is made.

[Cav]

1 hour ago, maven said:

You just quoted my ruling.

 

If properly appealed after R2 "fixed" his infraction, would you rule on a proper appeal by the D? 

 

[maven]

Yes, any time the defense makes a proper appeal, I would always rule on it: either uphold or deny.

[Cav]

Great, now we're getting somewhere. 

2 hours ago, maven said:

Yes, any time the defense makes a proper appeal, I would always rule on it: either uphold or deny.

So, now the D properly appeals that R2 missed HP before the BR was putout, that the run shouldn't count because he only touched it after the BR was putout, and that the shrimp bowl ice has all melted, at least in their players' lounge.    

What is your call?

[Senor Azul]

From the Jaksa/Roder rules interpretation manual:

“If a runner misses home plate and does not return to touch it, a time play is judged according to the time he passed the plate. If he returns to touch home, the passing of the plate is negated and the time play is judged according to the actual touch of the plate.”

[jjskitours]

I must admit after reading through this thread I'm still not 100% certain what the NFHS rule is when R2 comes back and touches the plate AFTER the 3rd out at 2nd and BEFORE the appeal that he missed the plate. If the appeal is made AFTER R2 corrected his mistake, I'm still leaning toward calling R2 out, no run scores. Is this correct and if so best rule and/or Case Book reference for NFHS?