Catcher holds umpire back

[scrounge]

Let's face it, this is just a bad look. The catcher had to physically hold back the umpire. No matter what was said, it's bad optics. Reverse the roles - would a player be fined/suspended for trying push thru an umpire like this? Should it be any different in this case?

 

And, as usual, pretty fair and substantive commentary from Len Kasper and Jim Deshaies. Can you imagine the hysterics if it was that clown Hawk Harrelson?

Edited June 26, 2015 by Thunderheads

[conbo61]

Textbook BAD game management.  The only thing that he did right was give Joe Maddon a lot of rope.  

 

[MikeSafari]

That absolutely does not look good. You can tell him whatever you need to tell him from behind the plate. No need to chase the pitcher out to the mound and have it out so visibly.

[kstrunk]

I'd lose games for doing something like that. Is there accountability in MLB on things like this? I totally get the human side of things, emotions, etc... I'm just wondering what happens after an incident like this to prevent it again in the future? Mere curiosity...

[maven]

Lester's pissed at his catcher, who booted a borderline pitch and made it a ball, and himself. He had given up 2 runs in the 1st and walked the leadoff in the 2nd, and he'll give up 2 more runs in the inning, leading to a 4-0 loss for the sucky Cubs. Frustration.

Maybe he had words about Fletcher, too, but he can't be that demonstrative without attracting PU's attention. His behavior required that Fletcher address it for the sake of game management.

Fletcher used an extremely advanced, and rather risky, game management tactic: "almost losing it." Yes, it looks bad to have F2 hold him back, however, consider the outcome: Lester is cowed and won't say another word. And he's still in the game (left after 4, not a good day). Maddon sticks up for his guy, but he's still in the game. Everybody has their say, everybody settles down, and we're back to baseball with no lineup changes.

I agree with the sentiment that this tactic is not for amateur baseball. On any field I work, if I decide I've had enough of F1's whinging, I'm enlisting first F2 and then the HC to rein in their F1 and keep him in the game.

[johnnyg08]

Top 2.  I didn't realize that until the end of the clip.  Geez.

[conbo61]

Lester's pissed at his catcher, who booted a borderline pitch and made it a ball, and himself. Maybe he had words about Fletcher, too, but he can't be that demonstrative without attracting PU's attention. His behavior required that Fletcher address it for the sake of game management.

Fletcher used an extremely advanced, and rather risky, game management tactic: "almost losing it." Yes, it looks bad to have F2 hold him back, however, consider the outcome: Lester is cowed and won't say another word. And he's still in the game. Maddon sticks up for his guy, but he's still in the game. Everybody has their say, everybody settles down, and we're back to baseball with no lineup changes.

I agree with the sentiment that this tactic is not for amateur baseball. On any field I work, if I decide I've had enough of F1's whinging, I'm enlisting first F2 and then the HC to rein in their F1 and keep him in the game.

Amateur or pro, ​I find it hard to believe that this is a game management "techinque".  I think that the guy was just having a bad day and let his emotions get the best of him.  I am sure there are other ways to cow a pitcher.

In all fairness, all we have seen is this ONE pitch and the ensuing theatrics.  Were there other borderline pitches that Lester took exception to?  Had he been chirping for a while?  There may have been more going on than we are aware of.

[paynew1993]

This is definitely a more advanced pro style way to handle the situation. Most guys on here probably won't agree with it but it got Fletcher the result he wanted and he kept Lester in the game. Lester was getting to the point where he was about to start demonstrating or possibly even throw at a batter and Fletcher would have had no other choice but to run him. So Fletcher jumps Lester which shuts him down and keeps him in the game. This is definitely an "all in" move, before he ever made a move at Lester Fletcher already knew he was going to draw all the attention back at him self. Sure it looks bad to fans and players but he got the situation taken care of and was able to keep everyone in the game and keep control of the game.

[Old Skool]

I have observed a similar technique with some of the older seasoned 20yr+ veterans in my area, some of who I know worked with Andy when he was a youngster before his pro days.  If they think a pitcher is showing them up they head to the mound while saying something like 'let me see that ball" but when they get close they light into his ass in a low key tone about mouthing at them complete with a warning all while changing the ball out.  It works & definitely gets that kids attention in a hurry.  Perhaps that is similar to his intent here.  He probably muttered something as he was leaving his position that alerted the catcher to react & defend Lester by implying that criticism was directed at his butchering of the ball 4 pitch.   

[Old Skool]

On another note my family & I were at this series M-W & on Monday night my son & I went down post game to meet the crew on this series.  Crew Chief Jerry Meals, Jordan Baker, Paul Emmel & Andy Fletcher.  It was a real pleasure to hear their stories of their routes through the minors & into MLB.  They are all class guys & it was cool of them to make time for us after the game.  Monday was the night that Maddon played the game under protest after the lights blinked just as Kris Bryant was due up & Maddon thought crew should suspend game b/c just a few bulbs didn't immediately re-boot.  He implied it was unfair his player had to bat in diminished lighting.  By the time Joe grandstanded & discussed/delayed for 7-8 minutes almost all bulbs were working.  

[UMP45]

Textbook BAD game management.  The only thing that he did right was give Joe Maddon a lot of rope.  

 

​They use a different textbook then we do.

 

[JaxRolo]

Never seen anything like this. I'm sure PU will hear about it.

[conbo61]

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with those that viewed this as game management technique.  I cannot see a Jim Joyce, Joe West, Gerry Davis or any of the more seasoned guys losing their cool like this.  According to MLB.com, Fletcher is a 15 year guy, he should know better.  

Personally, it is my belief that umpires should TRY to be above the fray; many game management discussions on this forum as well as other sources, center on the umpire's role in DIFFUSING a situation.  This appeared, to me, to be a case of putting out a fire with gasoline.

That being said, he is an MLB umpire and here I sit in Eastern PA.  As I pointed out earlier, in an effort to be fair to Mr. Fletcher, we are not aware if there had been issues prior to this particular pitch.  If in fact there wasn't, then he flat out blew it.  It doesn't make him a bad umpire, as we all have our bad days, but when you are on that big stage, eyes will be on you.

Right now, the headlines appearing on various websites are not what Joe Torre wants to see.  It does not reflect well on himself or his fellow MLB umpires.

[paynew1993]

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with those that viewed this as game management technique.  I cannot see a Jim Joyce, Joe West, Gerry Davis or any of the more seasoned guys losing their cool like this.  According to MLB.com, Fletcher is a 15 year guy, he should know better.  

Personally, it is my belief that umpires should TRY to be above the fray; many game management discussions on this forum as well as other sources, center on the umpire's role in DIFFUSING a situation.  This appeared, to me, to be a case of putting out a fire with gasoline.

That being said, he is an MLB umpire and here I sit in Eastern PA.  As I pointed out earlier, in an effort to be fair to Mr. Fletcher, we are not aware if there had been issues prior to this particular pitch.  If in fact there wasn't, then he flat out blew it.  It doesn't make him a bad umpire, as we all have our bad days, but when you are on that big stage, eyes will be on you.

Right now, the headlines appearing on various websites are not what Joe Torre wants to see.  It does not reflect well on himself or his fellow MLB umpires.

​It is a game management technique. Weather you agree with the method or not it is a real game management technique that is taught at the professional level.

[ricka56]

If they think a pitcher is showing them up they head to the mound while saying something like 'let me see that ball" but when they get close they light into his ass in a low key tone about mouthing at them complete with a warning all while changing the ball out.  It works & definitely gets that kids attention in a hurry.  Perhaps that is similar to his intent here.  He probably muttered something as he was leaving his position that alerted the catcher to react & defend Lester by implying that criticism was directed at his butchering of the ball 4 pitch.   

I think this may be what this umpire intended. But ​once F2 came out and got in front of PU, PU had lost the eliminate of surprise and had to address F1 from further away than he intended...but address him he did. It wasn't a good look, because F2 blew up his plan to quietly have his words with F1. But he did get he message sent, the manager stayed in the game and so did F1...for awhile anyways.

I doubt there will be any repercussions.

[Cav]

F1: WTF?

PU: STFU!

F1: I wasn't talking to you!

PU: And you didn't STFU either!

F1: What?

F2: I got 'im, Andy.

PU: You'd better.

HC: WTF?

PU: Dave's on it.

HC: On what?

PU: On that pile of s.it you put on the hill.

HC: Let me comp you a meal and you keep 'im in the game. I need some more innings out of 'im.

PU: I don't need no comp-ed meals, but he will if 'e shows me up again.

HC: It's a really nice place; room for the whole crew.

PU: It's not The Sixteen, is it?  We just want a simple steak dinner WITHOUT all the pizazz.

HC: No!  No!  That's B...S...!  The Sixteen has GREAT steaks and you don't have to have all the pizazz..  Howz 'bout The Pearl Tavern or The Duck Inn?  I've got 'im all.

PU: Yeah, yeah, leave something in the club house, but have someone else pick; I don't want you picking another loser today.  

HC: Thanks, Andy.

PU: You're welcome, A..hole.

 

 

[ScubaUmp]

 

​Joyce 27 yrs, West 37 yrs, and Davis 31 yrs, let's go back 15 years and look their techniques then, or even further back when it was the 'game of the week' that's right, there was only one televised MLB game a week before cable-tv. We just don't see it that much any more and it's a death nail for most of us, but he kept everybody in the game. And the bullpens got the message- not today boys, do your job.

​

​

Edited June 30, 2015 by ScubaUmp
grammar

[Umpire in Chief]

Remember when Davidson was seen as the aggressor against Manual, I think it cost him a game or 2 and possibly choice post season slots.