The force is off

[Tksjewelry]

I hadn't run into this play before or I've called it wrong in the past, I'm not sure which and it's probably a basic question, so I'm sorry if it's overly basic. 

Runners at 1st and 2nd. Ground ball to shallow right field. R4 is playing deep and slings the ball to R3 for the out. R3 whips the ball to F6 who is standing on second. Ball gets there before the runner but BU called him safe. In between inning, BU explained that because the BR was retired first that the force was off and the runner going to second had to be tagged. Is this correct? 

[johnnyg08]

If the batter runner is retired first all force outs are off and become tag plays.

By definition, a force out is an out where runners are forced to advance by virtue of a batter becoming a runner.  (or something like that)

 

 

[Tksjewelry]

Is this true of this too? 

Bases loaded. Ground ball to F4. F4 tags runner coming off of 1st heading to 2nd. Now is the force off of runners at 2nd and 3rd?

[Rich Ives]

Is this true of this too? 

Bases loaded. Ground ball to F4. F4 tags runner coming off of 1st heading to 2nd. Now is the force off of runners at 2nd and 3rd?

​Yes. There is now no one forcing them.

[Tksjewelry]

@johnnyg08 @Rich Ives thank you sirs for indulging the rudimentariness of that question. Much appreciated. 

[ElkOil]

It can be funny when the ball is hit to the outfield, too.  And younger players seem to like to try certain things you never otherwise see.  For example, in a select ball game the other day, BR was put out 9-3 because he was lolly-gagging to 1B.  Imagine your same scenario but the ball hit to F3 who steps on the bag first.  The proper player "mechanic" is to then yell "Tag!" as he throws to 2B so they know the force has been removed and must tag the runner out.

Edited May 4, 2015 by ElkOil

[Tksjewelry]

It can be funny when the ball is hit to the outfield, too.  And younger players seem to like to try certain things you never otherwise see.  For example, in a select ball game the other day, BR was put out 9-3 because he was lolly-gagging to 1B.  Image your same scenario but the ball hit to F3 who steps on the bag first.  The proper player "mechanic" is to then yell "Tag!" as he throws to 2B so they know the force has been removed and must tag the runner out.

Thanks for the mechanics info!! 

[Rich Ives]

Thanks for the mechanics info!! 

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Note it's a PLAYER mechanic.

[Tksjewelry]

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Note it's a PLAYER mechanic.

Missed that part. Oops.

[ElkOil]

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Note it's a PLAYER mechanic.

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Missed that part. Oops.

​You'll certainly see the older kids (13 and up) using it, and certainly adults.  I don't know if younger kids are that adept.  I've seen it both ways, though, and sometimes kids have no idea what constitutes a force and when it's no longer in effect.  I had two interesting situations occur.  One was with R2 only and a grounder to F5.  He picks up the ball and steps on the bag.  He got confused when he saw the runner stop and retreat to 2B.  By that time, he had no play at 1B.    Everybody safe.

Another time R1 only.  Grounder to F6 who throws to F4 for the force at 2B.  Runner freezes and tries to retreat to 1B and confuses R4 who then gets in a run-down with him.

It's a good idea to take a quick look around to know where the force outs are.  When the players get confused, you can get wrapped up in their keystone kop antics and make an incorrect call if you're not careful.

[noumpere]

Is this true of this too?

Bases loaded. Ground ball to F4. F4 tags runner coming off of 1st heading to 2nd. Now is the force off of runners at 2nd and 3rd?

​For both your questions -- can't R2 (in the first) or R2  (in the second) return to the original base and be safe if tagged on the base?  That's how / why you know the force is off.  You're just overthinking / over complicating it.

[DWDIII]

Did someone hack your account? You stated in another post that coaches did not want you on a state final because you were a woman, maybe it's because you don't know the basic rules. Keep working, keep studying and don't try to move up too quickly. 

[Tksjewelry]

Did someone hack your account? You stated in another post that coaches did not want you on a state final because you were a woman, maybe it's because you don't know the basic rules. Keep working, keep studying and don't try to move up too quickly. 

​Actually, if you'd like the details, they called the state director of Utrip before the game during a rain delay and told him specifically that they weren't going to take a field with a woman on it. Oh, and this was 8u ball. If you'd like to know more, they also didn't want my partner there either. The most experienced and respected umpire in our association (probably the state) who also coached his son into the MLB. Would you like specifics on the lovely racist things they said about him?

I don't hide the fact that I'm a second year umpire. I'm on this site to learn. Smug condescension like you displayed in your post only shows your lack of perspicacity. 

[Dbellyflop]

 Smug condescension like you displayed in your post only shows your lack of perspicacity. 

​Also is a reason why a lot of umpires in my league refuse to join or have left. I have played baseball my whole life and have coached 4 kids through Little League, and I know that I still have a lot to learn. There are many good people on here and lots of experience to learn from. But the condescending responses can get frustrating.....

 

Keep up the good work @Tksjewelry.....

[catsbackr]

Did someone hack your account? You stated in another post that coaches did not want you on a state final because you were a woman, maybe it's because you don't know the basic rules. Keep working, keep studying and don't try to move up too quickly. 

​I'm not sure if this was meant as smug and I certainly don't know what perspicacity is, but this is a legitimate question.

[JHSump]

Next time a coach tries to argue with me, I'm going to say, "Well, coach, that just shows your lack of perspicacity."  

@Tksjewelry I like your contributions to the forum. Keep up the good work!

@Dbellyflop  that's a shame that you know of umpires who refuse to join or have left. U-E is, to my mind, the best umpire site on the web. Ignore the bad responses...and there are not that many. I've seen much worse elsewhere. The helpful, useful information far far outweighs the junk. I tell all my umpire partners to look at U-E. Sometimes the conversation starts when they spot my 9.01(c) U-E sticker!

[maven]

I know plenty of umpires who have left U-E. They came here to dump on people trying to learn who posted the mistakes they made, and the mods told them to KTSO or get out.

Everyone makes mistakes, including umpires. Of course, as Twain said, you can make a mistake just once: after that, it's a bad habit.

[JHSump]

I know plenty of umpires who have left U-E. They came here to dump on people trying to learn who posted the mistakes they made, and the mods told them to KTSO or get out.

Everyone makes mistakes, including umpires. Of course, as Twain said, you can make a mistake just once: after that, it's a bad habit.

​Kudos to the mods! Another good reason to like U-E.

[Kevin_K]

I don't hide the fact that I'm a second year umpire. I'm on this site to learn. Smug condescension like you displayed in your post only shows your lack of perspicacity. 

Of course, as Twain said, you can make a mistake just once: after that, it's a bad habit.

​Wow! Vocabulary and literature all in one topic here on UE. School is in!

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[Dbellyflop]

i had to look up perspicacity.....

i am figuring out who to "listen to" and who to ignore here. I have learned a lot lurking around and enjoy most of the interaction with you all. (that's how Californians say it)

 

[RingEmUp]

​Actually, if you'd like the details, they called the state director of Utrip before the game during a rain delay and told him specifically that they weren't going to take a field with a woman on it. Oh, and this was 8u ball. If you'd like to know more, they also didn't want my partner there either. The most experienced and respected umpire in our association (probably the state) who also coached his son into the MLB. Would you like specifics on the lovely racist things they said about him?

I don't hide the fact that I'm a second year umpire. I'm on this site to learn. Smug condescension like you displayed in your post only shows your lack of perspicacity.

​Looks to me like the state director is a chump for not telling them to take the field or forfeit the entire tourney.  I haven't seen an original post for this story but it just sounds like garbage to me.

[Tksjewelry]

​Looks to me like the state director is a chump for not telling them to take the field or forfeit the entire tourney.  I haven't seen an original post for this story but it just sounds like garbage to me.

That's exactly what he said to them and they were booted from the league after those games. 

[RingEmUp]

That's exactly what he said to them and they were booted from the league after those games.

​Awesome!