To penalize or not to penalize...that is the question.

[woodiemiller]

Pregame meeting, both coaches are informed that there are gates that they are responsible for on the outfield sides of their respective dugouts.

 

Bases loaded with no outs & the team whos dugout is on the #B side, is up to bat. Doesnt matter the level. Fly ball to normal depth CF, who makes the catch while R3 tags LEGALLY from 3B.

R2 tags but decides to go back to 2B. Meanwhile, the throw goes to 3rd base where the ball goes over the 3rd basemans head, bounces in the grass area & proceeds to go THROUGH THE OPEN GATE & had the gate been closed, the ball easily stays on the field of play.

 

Question, because the batting team left open the gate (please do not say "a good umpire would have seen this & told them to close it before the inning started"), that in itself is NOT the issue here, would you award the runner on second base home because the ball went through the opened gate?

[Replacematt]

Pregame meeting, both coaches are informed that there are gates that they are responsible for on the outfield sides of their respective dugouts.

 

Bases loaded with no outs & the team whos dugout is on the #B side, is up to bat. Doesnt matter the level. Fly ball to normal depth CF, who makes the catch while R3 tags LEGALLY from 3B.

R2 tags but decides to go back to 2B. Meanwhile, the throw goes to 3rd base where the ball goes over the 3rd basemans head, bounces in the grass area & proceeds to go THROUGH THE OPEN GATE & had the gate been closed, the ball easily stays on the field of play.

 

Question, because the batting team left open the gate (please do not say "a good umpire would have seen this & told them to close it before the inning started", that in itself is NOT the issue here, would you award the runner on second base home because the ball went through the opened gate?

 

Is there any rule that says otherwise?

[JaxRolo]

I don't worry about gates.

Ball goes through kill it and award bases. Not my problem.

Don't even bring it up at pre game. Home teams job.

[Richvee]

I agree. 2 bases TOT. There's no other options

[Jimurray]

Pregame meeting, both coaches are informed that there are gates that they are responsible for on the outfield sides of their respective dugouts.

 

Bases loaded with no outs & the team whos dugout is on the #B side, is up to bat. Doesnt matter the level. Fly ball to normal depth CF, who makes the catch while R3 tags LEGALLY from 3B.

R2 tags but decides to go back to 2B. Meanwhile, the throw goes to 3rd base where the ball goes over the 3rd basemans head, bounces in the grass area & proceeds to go THROUGH THE OPEN GATE & had the gate been closed, the ball easily stays on the field of play.

 

Question, because the batting team left open the gate (please do not say "a good umpire would have seen this & told them to close it before the inning started", that in itself is NOT the issue here, would you award the runner on second base home because the ball went through the opened gate?

You left out a parenthesis and you left out who opened the gate and when. Actually I don't think any of that matters.

[labguy1971]

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

[Richvee]

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

You're making up rules. A ball that goes over, through or under a fence is out of play. Follow the rules for balls that go into DBT. 

[labguy1971]

 

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

You're making up rules. A ball that goes over, through or under a fence is out of play. Follow the rules for balls that go into DBT. 

 

Do you agree that we own the field once we get on it?  If so, than the gate being open is on the crew and the batting team gains an unfair advantage by leaving the gate open.  Not creating any rules, exercising my judgement.  Explain that one to the DC, I guess we would say "sorry coach did not catch that gate being open so batting team gets a run due to my error?" 

[Replacematt]

 

 

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

You're making up rules. A ball that goes over, through or under a fence is out of play. Follow the rules for balls that go into DBT. 

 

Do you agree that we own the field once we get on it?  If so, than the gate being open is on the crew and the batting team gains an unfair advantage by leaving the gate open.  Not creating any rules, exercising my judgement.  Explain that one to the DC, I guess we would say "sorry coach did not catch that gate being open so batting team gets a run due to my error?" 

 

 

They're the ones that messed up. They overthrew 3B. Pick your analogy: Golf, play it as it lies; Law, you take your victims as you find them. While they may not have been responsible for the playing conditions, they're the conditions at the time.

[labguy1971]

 

 

 

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

You're making up rules. A ball that goes over, through or under a fence is out of play. Follow the rules for balls that go into DBT. 

 

Do you agree that we own the field once we get on it?  If so, than the gate being open is on the crew and the batting team gains an unfair advantage by leaving the gate open.  Not creating any rules, exercising my judgement.  Explain that one to the DC, I guess we would say "sorry coach did not catch that gate being open so batting team gets a run due to my error?" 

 

 

They're the ones that messed up. They overthrew 3B. Pick your analogy: Golf, play it as it lies; Law, you take your victims as you find them. While they may not have been responsible for the playing conditions, they're the conditions at the time.

 

No the crew messed up by not catching the gate being open.  We can not just ignore that fact.  It is missed sometimes, bat left on field, gate left open...  Usually happens on the lower level games and not Varsity but in this case that was presented, if I was UIC on the field that is exactly how I would have handeled it.  However, I did ask you guys to rip me apart.  Have a good night.

[Replacematt]

 

 

 

 

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

You're making up rules. A ball that goes over, through or under a fence is out of play. Follow the rules for balls that go into DBT. 

 

Do you agree that we own the field once we get on it?  If so, than the gate being open is on the crew and the batting team gains an unfair advantage by leaving the gate open.  Not creating any rules, exercising my judgement.  Explain that one to the DC, I guess we would say "sorry coach did not catch that gate being open so batting team gets a run due to my error?" 

 

 

They're the ones that messed up. They overthrew 3B. Pick your analogy: Golf, play it as it lies; Law, you take your victims as you find them. While they may not have been responsible for the playing conditions, they're the conditions at the time.

 

No the crew messed up by not catching the gate being open.  We can not just ignore that fact.  It is missed sometimes, bat left on field, gate left open...  Usually happens on the lower level games and not Varsity but in this case that was presented, if I was UIC on the field that is exactly how I would have handeled it.  However, I did ask you guys to rip me apart.  Have a good night.

 

 

Yes, we can. In fact, we have to. There are plenty of times we make mistakes and we have to eat them. This is one of them. We have no legal recourse not to award bases on a ball thrown out of play.

[labguy1971]

 

 

 

 

 

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

You're making up rules. A ball that goes over, through or under a fence is out of play. Follow the rules for balls that go into DBT. 

 

Do you agree that we own the field once we get on it?  If so, than the gate being open is on the crew and the batting team gains an unfair advantage by leaving the gate open.  Not creating any rules, exercising my judgement.  Explain that one to the DC, I guess we would say "sorry coach did not catch that gate being open so batting team gets a run due to my error?" 

 

 

They're the ones that messed up. They overthrew 3B. Pick your analogy: Golf, play it as it lies; Law, you take your victims as you find them. While they may not have been responsible for the playing conditions, they're the conditions at the time.

 

No the crew messed up by not catching the gate being open.  We can not just ignore that fact.  It is missed sometimes, bat left on field, gate left open...  Usually happens on the lower level games and not Varsity but in this case that was presented, if I was UIC on the field that is exactly how I would have handeled it.  However, I did ask you guys to rip me apart.  Have a good night.

 

 

Yes, we can. In fact, we have to. There are plenty of times we make mistakes and we have to eat them. This is one of them. We have no legal recourse not to award bases on a ball thrown out of play.

 

You are not ignoring the fact but are acknowledging the error of the crew which is good, so with that argument a crap samich for the crew and follow the rule.  This is good and probably the best course but I would still do the same.  I will bring this up at my next ABOA meeting. 

[JaxRolo]

If I see a gate open towards the field I have it closed. (Safety)

If its open to the outside. I leave it alone. We got enough to do. Just Umpire.

[johnnyg08]

The thrown ball went out of play. We award bases accordingly. Don't make it more difficult than it needs to be.

[woodiemiller]

 

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

You're making up rules. A ball that goes over, through or under a fence is out of play. Follow the rules for balls that go into DBT. 

 

Does the rulebook not say something to the effect of any anything not covered, an umpire may rule on using his own?????

[Replacematt]

 

 

I would not, by rule it should happen.  Been taught that you look at who gains an advantage on something like this and batting team obviously would.  I would talk to the coach and remind him that the gate needs to stay closed and this was discussed at plate meeting.  Also been taught that we own the field once we step on to it, so it would have been our job to make sure that it was closed.  With all that being said, I stand by nothing to the batting team except a reminder to the head coach and my awareness of the possible problem of the gate being open.  Probably wrong, but can't see the DC coach having a problem with it.  If the OC does, than the reminder of what was discussed at plate meeting.  Rip me apart if you must.

You're making up rules. A ball that goes over, through or under a fence is out of play. Follow the rules for balls that go into DBT. 

 

Does the rulebook not say something to the effect of any anything not covered, an umpire may rule on using his own?????

 

 

Yes, but this isn't a situation that applies. There are rules that cover this. The ball went out of play, two bases.

[ALStripes17]

Ball went out of play people. Award accordingly.

The only extra recourse we may have here is if the umpire sees a team member purposefully open the gate during the play or they continue to purposefully leave it open. We could consider unsportsmanlike conduct under that sort of scenario.

Award the bases, the ball went out of play

[Replacematt]

Ball went out of play people. Award accordingly.

The only extra recourse we may have here is if the umpire sees a team member purposefully open the gate during the play or they continue to purposefully leave it open. We could consider unsportsmanlike conduct under that sort of scenario.

Award the bases, the ball went out of play

 

I'd use the interference rule as my primary hammer in that situation. That'll allow you to rectify the on-field situation. The USC can deal with the offender.

[johnnyg08]

Does the rulebook not say something to the effect of any anything not covered, an umpire may rule on using his own?????

Sure it does, except this situation is covered in the rules. A thrown ball goes out of play.

[Cav]

DC: Whadaya mean, he gets home? 

Me: That's the penalty by rule.   

DC: What?  WE get penalized 'cause DEY leff da' gate open?

Me: Your team threw the ball into DBT.

DC: NO WAY!  We trew it to tird!

Me: Let's play ball.

DC: What?

[Mick]

The moral of the story is to say what you asked us not to say:  Always look around before every half inning for a quick check on everything, including the gates.

[Mudisfun]

Bottom line is the defense messed up by making a bad throw to third. How is the ball going through the open gate any different than if it bounced over the fencing or found a hole under and went out of play? Yes the gates should have been closed but once that condition was allowed to exist the open fencing became part of the existing playing field and you must rule on the play accordingly.

 

Time... you home.

 

Play ball.

[woodiemiller]

I don't worry about gates.

Ball goes through kill it and award bases. Not my problem.

Don't even bring it up at pre game. Home teams job.

Yes, home teams coach brings it up @ pre game. Its BOTH teams responsibility to keep their respective gates CLOSED. If they dont when their team is up to bat, its an UNFAIR advantage if the ball goes thru the opening. Thats the whole point of this. Your point was just ignore it?

[woodiemiller]

Bottom line is the defense messed up by making a bad throw to third. How is the ball going through the open gate any different than if it bounced over the fencing or found a hole under and went out of play? Yes the gates should have been closed but once that condition was allowed to exist the open fencing became part of the existing playing field and you must rule on the play accordingly.

 

Time... you home.

 

Play ball.

Because the ball would remain on the playing field had the gate been CLOSED! Its an unfair advantage to leave a gate open that you are responsible for when YOUR team is batting. Think about it. We as umpires are all about FAIR play. How is that fair? Whats to keep a team from keeping the gate open every time theyre up to bat but make sure its closed when they are on the field? Just because the rulebook doesnt mention EVERY SINGLE case play, doesnt mean you cannot use your own personal discretion.

The moral of the story is to say what you asked us not to say:  Always look around before every half inning for a quick check on everything, including the gates.

Thats NOT our responsibility. Do you go around & check to make sure every player is wearing a cup too? 

[woodiemiller]

I agree. 2 bases TOT. There's no other options

Think for yourself a minute. Umpires job is to make sure to be FAIR. Keeping a gate open when your team is up is having an unfair advantage if the ball goes through! Just because the rule book doesnt address every case scenario, doesnt mean you cant use your own discretion of "fair play". The rule book should be used to solve problems, not create them. 

[woodiemiller]

 

Pregame meeting, both coaches are informed that there are gates that they are responsible for on the outfield sides of their respective dugouts.

 

Bases loaded with no outs & the team whos dugout is on the #B side, is up to bat. Doesnt matter the level. Fly ball to normal depth CF, who makes the catch while R3 tags LEGALLY from 3B.

R2 tags but decides to go back to 2B. Meanwhile, the throw goes to 3rd base where the ball goes over the 3rd basemans head, bounces in the grass area & proceeds to go THROUGH THE OPEN GATE & had the gate been closed, the ball easily stays on the field of play.

 

Question, because the batting team left open the gate (please do not say "a good umpire would have seen this & told them to close it before the inning started", that in itself is NOT the issue here, would you award the runner on second base home because the ball went through the opened gate?

You left out a parenthesis and you left out who opened the gate and when. Actually I don't think any of that matters.

 

So, all you can do is point out a typo? Really? that adds to the discussion how exactly? Who opened the gate & when? That doesnt matter. It only matters its their responsibility to keep gates closed ESPECIALLY when their respective team is on the field other wise it becomes an unfair advantage if the ball goes through.