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Clarification Regarding Base Awards

D62 blue

By D62 blue
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D62 blue

D62 blue

Posted
Posted

The following is an already published ruling , i don't believe one of the possible published answers is correct though . If you already know this info , hold off until others in the group can comment further . Iam paraphrasing a bit from the actual text .

 

R1 is running on the the pitch , B3 hits the pitch to F8 who makes a shoestring catch . F8 throws to 1st , ball ends up in DB territory . R1 was 2 steps from 3rd when F8 released the throw and still between 2nd & 3rd when the throw entered DB territory . there are no outs .

 

I don't agree with one of the possible published answers , but lets see ?

 

 

possible answers assume ( fed rules only )

 

A. R1 attempts to return to 1st , allow him to retouch

 

B. R1 must retouch 2nd on his way to 1st

 

C. since R1 had not touched 2nd before the ball went into DB territory , he cannot legally retouch 1st

 

D. with no attempt to retouch 2nd and 1st legally R1 may be called out

 

E. R1 is awarded 3rd

 

F. R1 is awarded home

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maven
maven

No, that's not it. He has to be (legally) on the 1B side of 2B when the ball goes out of play. At that point, he has satisfied the restriction in 8-2-5, and may proceed during the dead ball to retouch

ALStripes17
ALStripes17

If you can find me a coach that still appeals 1B even after everyone in the ballpark sees the runner 'retouch', Ill show you a unicorn (doesn't exist). If you find an umpire that calls the runner out

Richvee
Richvee

@kstrunk- Not to make the FED rule any more complicated but there is a provision called "intentional catch and carry" which makes it illegal for a fielder who happens to know the FED retouch rules to

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

"A. R1 attempts to return to 1st , allow him to retouch"

 

Correct: the ball is dead, we will allow him to run the bases provided that he does so legally.

 

 

"B. R1 must retouch 2nd on his way to 1st"

 

This is moot.

 

 

"C. since R1 had not touched 2nd before the ball went into DB territory , he cannot legally retouch 1st"

 

Correct. 8-2-5

 

 

"D. with no attempt to retouch 2nd and 1st legally R1 may be called out"

 

Incorrect: the defense must appeal the failure to retouch per 8-2-6. Since the runner by rule may not correct his infraction, a properly constituted appeal would always be granted in this situation.

 

 

"E. R1 is awarded 3rd"

 

Incorrect: a slightly vexed question, but the rule states that the award shall be from the base last occupied at the time of the throw, in this case 2B. 8-3-5

 

 

"F. R1 is awarded home"

 

Correct: see above.

Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

"A. R1 attempts to return to 1st , allow him to retouch"

 

Correct: the ball is dead, we will allow him to run the bases provided that he does so legally.

 

 

"B. R1 must retouch 2nd on his way to 1st"

 

This is moot.

 

 

"C. since R1 had not touched 2nd before the ball went into DB territory , he cannot legally retouch 1st"

 

Correct. 8-2-5

 

 

"D. with no attempt to retouch 2nd and 1st legally R1 may be called out"

 

Incorrect: the defense must appeal the failure to retouch per 8-2-6. Since the runner by rule may not correct his infraction, a properly constituted appeal would always be granted in this situation.

 

 

"E. R1 is awarded 3rd"

 

Incorrect: a slightly vexed question, but the rule states that the award shall be from the base last occupied at the time of the throw, in this case 2B. 8-3-5

 

 

"F. R1 is awarded home"

 

Correct: see above.

If this is FED wouldn't this part of 8-3-5 apply?

"When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch."

  • Like 1
maven

maven

Posted
Posted

If this is FED wouldn't this part of 8-3-5 apply?

"When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch."

Why, yes, yes it would. Not sure how I missed that: I was thinking the award should be 3B, but couldn't find that sentence. RIF

  • Like 1
Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

If this is FED wouldn't this part of 8-3-5 apply?

"When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch."

Why, yes, yes it would. Not sure how I missed that: I was thinking the award should be 3B, but couldn't find that sentence. RIF I have missed it many times but, when appropriate, @grayhawk has brought it to our attention and it has finally sunk in for me.
  • Like 1
Thunderheads

Thunderheads

Posted
Posted

"A. R1 attempts to return to 1st , allow him to retouch"

 

Correct: the ball is dead, we will allow him to run the bases provided that he does so legally.

 

 

"B. R1 must retouch 2nd on his way to 1st"

 

This is moot.

 

 

"C. since R1 had not touched 2nd before the ball went into DB territory , he cannot legally retouch 1st"

 

Correct. 8-2-5

 

 

"D. with no attempt to retouch 2nd and 1st legally R1 may be called out"

 

Incorrect: the defense must appeal the failure to retouch per 8-2-6. Since the runner by rule may not correct his infraction, a properly constituted appeal would always be granted in this situation.

 

 

"E. R1 is awarded 3rd"

 

Incorrect: a slightly vexed question, but the rule states that the award shall be from the base last occupied at the time of the throw, in this case 2B. 8-3-5

 

 

"F. R1 is awarded home"

 

Correct: see above.

Sorry guys .... I'm confused about maven's answer to "C" ....

  • Like 1
D62 blue

D62 blue

Posted
  • Author
Posted

In fed once the ball has gone into DB area , runners cannot re-touch (go back ) to a  base they are already beyond (passed) . therefore in my OP R1 cannot legally go back and re touch 2nd then re touch 1st . Upon proper appeal he would be out . Obr this is allowed not in fed though .

 

Marc

kstrunk

kstrunk

Posted
Posted

In fed once the ball has gone into DB area , runners cannot re-touch (go back ) to a  base they are already beyond (passed) . therefore in my OP R1 cannot legally go back and re touch 2nd then re touch 1st . Upon proper appeal he would be out . Obr this is allowed not in fed though .

 

Marc

I'm a novice, studying for the FED exam in February, so I need help here. Are we saying that R1, currently between 2nd and 3rd when F8 throws the ball into the DB area, may not retouch 2nd in attempt to return to 1st? Is he mandated to give up? I realize the ball is dead, but then how can the defense properly appeal to make an out on R1? Sorry if this is not worthy of the discussion, just trying to understand. Thanks. 

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

 

In fed once the ball has gone into DB area , runners cannot re-touch (go back ) to a  base they are already beyond (passed) . therefore in my OP R1 cannot legally go back and re touch 2nd then re touch 1st . Upon proper appeal he would be out . Obr this is allowed not in fed though .

 

Marc

I'm a novice, studying for the FED exam in February, so I need help here. Are we saying that R1, currently between 2nd and 3rd when F8 throws the ball into the DB area, may not retouch 2nd in attempt to return to 1st? Is he mandated to give up? I realize the ball is dead, but then how can the defense properly appeal to make an out on R1? Sorry if this is not worthy of the discussion, just trying to understand. Thanks. 

 

 

OK, first a preliminary point: to determine the AWARD, you need to know the time of the THROW. For a throw out of play by an outfielder, the award is always 2 bases TOT.

 

To determine whether a runner may correct a baserunning ERROR (missed base, retouch), you need to know when the ball became DEAD. If he's on or beyond a succeeding base at that time, he may not return to correct the error. This is a different standard from the one applied for the award.

 

In the OP, if he touches 2B around the time the ball becomes dead and is on his way back to 1B, it's likely close enough for me to allow a legal retouch during the dead ball.

 

Of course, a runner who is beyond the succeeding base when the ball becomes dead can jog around touching bases, but by rule he may not legally correct his error at that point. Those touches don't "count," and he is therefore liable to be out on appeal.

 

With the ball dead, in FED the defense may appeal verbally ("hey, he didn't tag up!"), or, after the ball becomes live, by tagging the runner or the base where the error occurred. The standard appeal procedures apply. 8-2-6-b and -c

  • Like 1
noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

 

 

With the ball dead, in FED the defense may appeal verbally ("hey, he didn't tag up!"), or, after the ball becomes live, by tagging the runner or the base where the error occurred. The standard appeal procedures apply. 8-2-6-b and -c

 

Agreed with all of the above, and will add that even once the ball is dead the defense can't appeal until all baserunning awards have been completed (or some words to that effect in FED).

 

Also, one state still just declares the runner out -- but for our newer poster, it's NOT PA.

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kstrunk

kstrunk

Posted
Posted

So if I'm understanding correctly, if R1 doesn't correct his error (retouch) prior to the ball going out of play, he is liable to put out on appeal, even after being awarded 2 bases on the DB throw? 

 

I've got a ton to learn!!! 

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

So if I'm understanding correctly, if R1 doesn't correct his error (retouch) prior to the ball going out of play, he is liable to put out on appeal, even after being awarded 2 bases on the DB throw? 

 

I've got a ton to learn!!! 

 

No, that's not it. He has to be (legally) on the 1B side of 2B when the ball goes out of play. At that point, he has satisfied the restriction in 8-2-5, and may proceed during the dead ball to retouch 1B.

 

Once he does so, he may legally touch 2B on the way to his awarded base, 3B.

  • Like 2
ALStripes17

ALStripes17

Posted
Posted

So if I'm understanding correctly, if R1 doesn't correct his error (retouch) prior to the ball going out of play, he is liable to put out on appeal, even after being awarded 2 bases on the DB throw?

I've got a ton to learn!!!

To clarify, the actual retouch does not have to be corrected before the ball goes out of play.

If the runner needs to retouch 1B and is between 2B and 3B when the ball goes out of play, he is not allowed to correct his retouch at that point. As an umpire, you can always allow him to come back to touch 1B during his award, but understand that retouch has NOT corrected his mistake.

If the runner is between 1B and 2B when the ball goes out of play, he can legally retouch 1B during his award.

  • Like 1
kstrunk

kstrunk

Posted
Posted

Thanks maven. Grateful for your patience. I think I got it now. After a runner touches the successive base from where he began he becomes liable to be put on appeal and may not correct his error after the ball is dead. 

 

Now...if God will grant me sharpness to catch all this visually when it happens!!! Pretty subjective I guess, but hey... the umpire's opinion in this only one that matters is such situations. 

ALStripes17

ALStripes17

Posted
Posted

Thanks maven. Grateful for your patience. I think I got it now. After a runner touches the successive base from where he began he becomes liable to be put on appeal and may not correct his error after the ball is dead.

Now...if God will grant me sharpness to catch all this visually when it happens!!! Pretty subjective I guess, but hey... the umpire's opinion in this only one that matters is such situations.

If you can find me a coach that still appeals 1B even after everyone in the ballpark sees the runner 'retouch', Ill show you a unicorn (doesn't exist).

If you find an umpire that calls the runner out on appeal at 1B after everyone sees the runner 'retouch,' and I'll show you an insanely knowledgeable (possibly crazy) umpire that will have a lot of paperwork after that game ;)

  • Like 2
maven

maven

Posted
Posted

Thanks again guys. By the way, what is the corresponding rule reference in OBR? 

 

The appeal rule is 7.10, but it's rather different from FED (no dead-ball appeal, etc.)

  • Like 1
grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

OBR is different. A runner cannot legally correct his base running error if he touches the succeeding base after the ball becomes dead. In the OP, this would be if R1 touched third after the ball went out of play. Also, in OBR, the initial award would be home, but would be revised to third after he goes back and retouches first. Don't have my books, so not sure of the proper cite.

D62 blue

D62 blue

Posted
  • Author
Posted

The following is an already published ruling , i don't believe one of the possible published answers is correct though . If you already know this info , hold off until others in the group can comment further . Iam paraphrasing a bit from the actual text .

 

R1 is running on the the pitch , B3 hits the pitch to F8 who makes a shoestring catch . F8 throws to 1st , ball ends up in DB territory . R1 was 2 steps from 3rd when F8 released the throw and still between 2nd & 3rd when the throw entered DB territory . there are no outs .

 

I don't agree with one of the possible published answers , but lets see ?

 

 

possible answers assume ( fed rules only )

 

A. R1 attempts to return to 1st , allow him to retouch OBR

 

B. R1 must retouch 2nd on his way to 1st OBR

 

C. since R1 had not touched 2nd before the ball went into DB territory , he cannot legally retouch 1st FED

 

D. with no attempt to retouch 2nd and 1st legally R1 may be called out OBR

 

E. R1 is awarded 3rd OBR /FED

 

F. R1 is awarded home ??

see above for the published "correct answers " for OBR & FED , further comments welcome , my confusion (base awards) is from R1 @ TOP versus R1 @ TOT into DB area . I thought that "F" was a possible correct (base award) answer ?

Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

@kstrunk- Not to make the FED rule any more complicated but there is a provision called "intentional catch and carry" which makes it illegal for a fielder who happens to know the FED retouch rules to intentionally run or throw a ball into DBT because he sees a baserunner past a succeeding base. 

 

Example:

R1 no outs. Hit and run, fly ball down the RF line. R1 is around 2nd when F9 makes the catch. Seeing this, F9 throws the ball into DBT and plans on appealing R1 was past 2nd base when the ball went into DBT. In such a case, if intentional, the umpire will award the runner 2 bases, TOP. 

  • Like 2
noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

 

The following is an already published ruling , i don't believe one of the possible published answers is correct though . If you already know this info , hold off until others in the group can comment further . Iam paraphrasing a bit from the actual text .

 

R1 is running on the the pitch , B3 hits the pitch to F8 who makes a shoestring catch . F8 throws to 1st , ball ends up in DB territory . R1 was 2 steps from 3rd when F8 released the throw and still between 2nd & 3rd when the throw entered DB territory . there are no outs .

 

I don't agree with one of the possible published answers , but lets see ?

 

 

possible answers assume ( fed rules only )

 

A. R1 attempts to return to 1st , allow him to retouch OBR

 

B. R1 must retouch 2nd on his way to 1st OBR

 

C. since R1 had not touched 2nd before the ball went into DB territory , he cannot legally retouch 1st FED

 

D. with no attempt to retouch 2nd and 1st legally R1 may be called out OBR

 

E. R1 is awarded 3rd OBR /FED

 

F. R1 is awarded home ??

see above for the published "correct answers " for OBR & FED , further comments welcome , my confusion (base awards) is from R1 @ TOP versus R1 @ TOT into DB area . I thought that "F" was a possible correct (base award) answer ?

 

I think it depends on whose interpretation you read / believe and maybe when the question was originally published (because someones interpretation might have changed since then)

D62 blue

D62 blue

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

 

The following is an already published ruling , i don't believe one of the possible published answers is correct though . If you already know this info , hold off until others in the group can comment further . Iam paraphrasing a bit from the actual text .

 

R1 is running on the the pitch , B3 hits the pitch to F8 who makes a shoestring catch . F8 throws to 1st , ball ends up in DB territory . R1 was 2 steps from 3rd when F8 released the throw and still between 2nd & 3rd when the throw entered DB territory . there are no outs .

 

I don't agree with one of the possible published answers , but lets see ?

 

 

possible answers assume ( fed rules only )

 

A. R1 attempts to return to 1st , allow him to retouch OBR

 

B. R1 must retouch 2nd on his way to 1st OBR

 

C. since R1 had not touched 2nd before the ball went into DB territory , he cannot legally retouch 1st FED

 

D. with no attempt to retouch 2nd and 1st legally R1 may be called out OBR

 

E. R1 is awarded 3rd OBR /FED

 

F. R1 is awarded home ??

see above for the published "correct answers " for OBR & FED , further comments welcome , my confusion (base awards) is from R1 @ TOP versus R1 @ TOT into DB area . I thought that "F" was a possible correct (base award) answer ?

 

I think it depends on whose interpretation you read / believe and maybe when the question was originally published (because someones interpretation might have changed since then)

 

this questions is from a 2014 rules test , hope that helps

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