Batter out of order

[chadozee]

Bottom of 1st, first batter comes up and hits a single to left. Before the next batter steps in the box, the Home team Manager steps out of the dugout, yells to the runner on first to come back and that he's out for batting out of order. Turns out the first batter was actually the 2nd batter in the lineup. Runner leaves 1st base and goes to the dugout.

Who's out, who bats next?

[noumpere]

The person WHO SHOULD HAVE BATTED is out -- that's B1.

 

The person who follows B1 bats next -- that's B2.  It doesn't matter that B2 is the same guy who just hit.

 

It's called BOOT (batting out of order), but it should be called MYTAB (Missed Your Turn At Bat) -- that makes it easy (or at least easier) to get these right.

 

(And, once the at bat is over, only the defense can "notice" this -- but that's a small point given how obvious the home team made this)

[JaxRolo]

The person WHO SHOULD HAVE BATTED is out -- that's B1.

The person who follows B1 bats next -- that's B2. It doesn't matter that B2 is the same guy who just hit.

It's called BOOT (batting out of order), but it should be called MYTAB (Missed Your Turn At Bat) -- that makes it easy (or at least easier) to get these right.

(And, once the at bat is over, only the defense can "notice" this -- but that's a small point given how obvious the home team made this)

Can the offense appeal BOO?

[noumpere]

 

Can the offense appeal BOO?

 

By rule, no, once the at bat is over.  So, by rule, you could say to the HT -- "no -- he stays at first."  And, that's what I would do at higher levels.

 

That said, I doubt the OP would happen at the higher levels, so I'd assume (yeah, I know...) that even if you tried to leave B2 at first, the defense would raise the issue and we're back to B1 is out for MYTAB and B2 hits "again".

[Forest Ump]

 

 

Can the offense appeal BOO?

 

The way this game is starting.....Just be thankful you got one more out closer to the suds

[LRZ]

Is this correct?

 

Who is out? B1, for the missed turn; B2/Runner, for abandonment. Two outs.

 

Next batter? B2, with two outs. If B2 had not abandoned and were still on base, next batter would be B3, with one out.

[noumpere]

Is this correct?

 

Who is out? B1, for the missed turn; B2/Runner, for abandonment. Two outs.

 

Next batter? B2, with two outs. If B2 had not abandoned and were still on base, next batter would be B3, with one out.

No -- that's not correct.

 

If B1 is out, then B2 is removed from the base.  It's not abandonment, and B2 isn't skipped since he isn't on base anymore.

[Jimurray]

Bottom of 1st, first batter comes up and hits a single to left. Before the next batter steps in the box, the Home team Manager steps out of the dugout, yells to the runner on first to come back and that he's out for batting out of order. Turns out the first batter was actually the 2nd batter in the lineup. Runner leaves 1st base and goes to the dugout.

Who's out, who bats next?

Taking a hint from @LRZ, B2 is out for abandonment and you wait to see what happens next. If the out for abandonment is a play, B3 is the next proper batter.

[Replacematt]

Bottom of 1st, first batter comes up and hits a single to left. Before the next batter steps in the box, the Home team Manager steps out of the dugout, yells to the runner on first to come back and that he's out for batting out of order. Turns out the first batter was actually the 2nd batter in the lineup. Runner leaves 1st base and goes to the dugout.

Who's out, who bats next?

Taking a hint from @LRZ, B2 is out for abandonment and you wait to see what happens next. If the out for abandonment is a play, B3 is the next proper batter.

And B1 can no longer be appealed for not batting.

[Richvee]

 

 

Bottom of 1st, first batter comes up and hits a single to left. Before the next batter steps in the box, the Home team Manager steps out of the dugout, yells to the runner on first to come back and that he's out for batting out of order. Turns out the first batter was actually the 2nd batter in the lineup. Runner leaves 1st base and goes to the dugout.

Who's out, who bats next?

Taking a hint from @LRZ, B2 is out for abandonment and you wait to see what happens next. If the out for abandonment is a play, B3 is the next proper batter.

And B1 can no longer be appealed for not batting.

 

And if B1 comes up and defense appeals, B3 takes his place at bat with no additional penalty. (one out, no one on, B3 AB in top 1. Nice trivia question)

[BigSimonia]

I think what I'd do is call "Time", charge the HT with an offensive conference (If FED); tell the HTC he can't appeal BOOT; return B2 to 1st and then let it play out from there - At that point I'm assuming VTC has woken up to the BOOT issue and will appeal (or not).  If he appeals, B1 is out, B2 is removed and B2 returns to bat.  Getting an out for abandonment seems to me to be OO and needlessly grabbing the wrong end of the stick

[Jimurray]

I think what I'd do is call "Time", charge the HT with an offensive conference (If FED); tell the HTC he can't appeal BOOT; return B2 to 1st and then let it play out from there - At that point I'm assuming VTC has woken up to the BOOT issue and will appeal (or not).  If he appeals, B1 is out, B2 is removed and B2 returns to bat.  Getting an out for abandonment seems to me to be OO and needlessly grabbing the wrong end of the stick

If the defense is a clueless as the offense they might not appeal. Or, they might not be clueless and want to see who the next batter is. A later appeal might move them thought the top of the order. Then during the timeout the OC asks you who he should bat next. What do you tell him?

[LRZ]

 

Is this correct?

 

Who is out? B1, for the missed turn; B2/Runner, for abandonment. Two outs.

 

Next batter? B2, with two outs. If B2 had not abandoned and were still on base, next batter would be B3, with one out.

No -- that's not correct.

 

If B1 is out, then B2 is removed from the base.  It's not abandonment, and B2 isn't skipped since he isn't on base anymore.

 

 

noumpere, what is the OBR cite (or manual reference) for removing B2? Is it the language in R6.07(b) about nullifying any advance because of a ball batted by an improper batter? Not arguing with you, just trying to learn. 

[Richvee]

 

 

Is this correct?

 

Who is out? B1, for the missed turn; B2/Runner, for abandonment. Two outs.

 

Next batter? B2, with two outs. If B2 had not abandoned and were still on base, next batter would be B3, with one out.

No -- that's not correct.

 

If B1 is out, then B2 is removed from the base.  It's not abandonment, and B2 isn't skipped since he isn't on base anymore.

 

 

noumpere, what is the OBR cite (or manual reference) for removing B2? Is it the language in R6.07(b) about nullifying any advance because of a ball batted by an improper batter? Not arguing with you, just trying to learn. 

 

Approved ruling..play 2(a)

[LRZ]

I missed that, Rich. Thank you.

[Mudder]

Would anything change if B1 on first on his way back to the dugout, was tagged?

[DVA7130]

The away team are idiots. Fire that coach.

[BigSimonia]

 

I think what I'd do is call "Time", charge the HT with an offensive conference (If FED); tell the HTC he can't appeal BOOT; return B2 to 1st and then let it play out from there - At that point I'm assuming VTC has woken up to the BOOT issue and will appeal (or not).  If he appeals, B1 is out, B2 is removed and B2 returns to bat.  Getting an out for abandonment seems to me to be OO and needlessly grabbing the wrong end of the stick

If the defense is a clueless as the offense they might not appeal. Or, they might not be clueless and want to see who the next batter is. A later appeal might move them thought the top of the order. Then during the timeout the OC asks you who he should bat next. What do you tell him?

 

"The proper batter bats next, coach"

[Senor Azul]

Mr. chadozee, could you add some details please.

 

Did the home team manager ask for time? Did you grant it?

 

Which dugout did the home team have? Did the runner make it all the way to the dugout? During live ball or time out?

 

Was there any reaction to all this from the opposing team?

 

Which rule set were you playing under?

[Jimurray]

Mr. chadozee, could you add some details please.

 

Did the home team manager ask for time? Did you grant it?

 

Which dugout did the home team have? Did the runner make it all the way to the dugout? During live ball or time out?

 

Was there any reaction to all this from the opposing team?

 

Which rule set were you playing under?

Good questions.

[Jimurray]

I think what I'd do is call "Time", charge the HT with an offensive conference (If FED); tell the HTC he can't appeal BOOT; return B2 to 1st and then let it play out from there - At that point I'm assuming VTC has woken up to the BOOT issue and will appeal (or not).  If he appeals, B1 is out, B2 is removed and B2 returns to bat.  Getting an out for abandonment seems to me to be OO and needlessly grabbing the wrong end of the stick

If the defense is a clueless as the offense they might not appeal. Or, they might not be clueless and want to see who the next batter is. A later appeal might move them thought the top of the order. Then during the timeout the OC asks you who he should bat next. What do you tell him?

"The proper batter bats next, coach"

OC "but you already helped me avoid an abandonment call" why won't you help me here?

[chadozee]

Mr. chadozee, could you add some details please.

 

Did the home team manager ask for time? Did you grant it?

 

He did not ask for time, nor was it granted

 

Which dugout did the home team have? Did the runner make it all the way to the dugout? During live ball or time out?

 

third base dugout, yes he made it to the dugout

 

Was there any reaction to all this from the opposing team?

 

The opposing coaches were very laid back and watched the situation.

 

Which rule set were you playing under?

 

Modified FED

[noumpere]

 

 

I think what I'd do is call "Time", charge the HT with an offensive conference (If FED); tell the HTC he can't appeal BOOT; return B2 to 1st and then let it play out from there - At that point I'm assuming VTC has woken up to the BOOT issue and will appeal (or not).  If he appeals, B1 is out, B2 is removed and B2 returns to bat.  Getting an out for abandonment seems to me to be OO and needlessly grabbing the wrong end of the stick

If the defense is a clueless as the offense they might not appeal. Or, they might not be clueless and want to see who the next batter is. A later appeal might move them thought the top of the order. Then during the timeout the OC asks you who he should bat next. What do you tell him?

 

"The proper batter bats next, coach"

 

Disagree.  If I'm asked a specific question like that, I'm going to give as specific an answer as I can.  Maybe it's just "B2 (or #xx) is on first, so B3 (or whoever is after #xx) is the next batter" (especially if I don't have a line-up card).

[Senor Azul]

Thank you, Mr. chadozee, for adding the details.

 

From the 2014 edition of Carl Childress' BRD:

 

Fed: POE 1999: An improper batter may be "discovered" by either team (7.1.1b), but after the improper batter has completed his at-bat, only the defense may "appeal" the infraction. (7-1-1) 

 

Note: Before the improper batter completes his at-bat, his coach may say, "Hey, that's the wrong batter," and the proper batter will step in, assuming the count. After the at-bat, if the offense "discovers" the infraction, the umpires will ignore it unless the defense appeals.

 

No coach has the authority to declare an out as this one did in your game--even if he is being altruistic and honest. Absent an appeal from the defense, the umpire is instructed by interpretation to ignore the discovery of the BOO infraction by the offense. Since the coach in your game ordered his runner to the dugout, I think you have no choice but to call the runner out for abandonment. Hopefully, by then the light will have gone on in the defensive coach's head and he will make an appeal.

 

Here's another applicable Fed interpretation:

 

The defensive coach may appeal a batting-out-of-order violation, regardless of how he learned of it.

 

Upon a proper appeal, the out for BOO would supersede the out called for abandonment.

[BigSimonia]

 

 

 

I think what I'd do is call "Time", charge the HT with an offensive conference (If FED); tell the HTC he can't appeal BOOT; return B2 to 1st and then let it play out from there - At that point I'm assuming VTC has woken up to the BOOT issue and will appeal (or not).  If he appeals, B1 is out, B2 is removed and B2 returns to bat.  Getting an out for abandonment seems to me to be OO and needlessly grabbing the wrong end of the stick

If the defense is a clueless as the offense they might not appeal. Or, they might not be clueless and want to see who the next batter is. A later appeal might move them thought the top of the order. Then during the timeout the OC asks you who he should bat next. What do you tell him?

 

"The proper batter bats next, coach"

 

Disagree.  If I'm asked a specific question like that, I'm going to give as specific an answer as I can.  Maybe it's just "B2 (or #xx) is on first, so B3 (or whoever is after #xx) is the next batter" (especially if I don't have a line-up card).

 

Not my job to tell the coach who he should bat next.  Who he should bat next is up to the coach to decide.